Maritime Navigation
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: Maritime Navigation
The joy of the tangent![;)]
RE: Maritime Navigation
I know you will download the book and read his 2 1/2 page bio[;)]... but it looks like the first iteration or maybe predecessor to it was 1799 and the first version prior to 1810.ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: witpqs
The links I provided are to the 2017 Edition and it says "ORIGINALLY BY NATHANIEL BOWDITCH, LL.D.", so they keep it current.
I thought it was more 1820s, so it is over 200 years old now. They say they went back to a two-volume. My dad's was one, but you could have stunned an ox with it. It was (still is) hefty. I leafed through it in HS when I was in NJROTC and remember thinking "this is a man's book."
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
RE: Maritime Navigation
They didn't have computers back in the 40's?
Sure they did. Norden bombsite is an example. Various coding/decoding machines. All electromechanical, but computers none the less. Don't know of any for navigation though.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
RE: Maritime Navigation
Former QM on fast attack boat in early 70's. Primary navigation was by DR,
supported by Loran A/C and SINS. Hard to use the sextant from the bridge
of a submarine. Bowditch's book was on board.
supported by Loran A/C and SINS. Hard to use the sextant from the bridge
of a submarine. Bowditch's book was on board.
Two types of ships, targets and submarines
Death from below
Death from below
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RE: Maritime Navigation
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Sextant. A sexton is a church worker. [:)]
"Coastal navigation" = "piloting."
Anyone who wants to understand how the USN navigated in WWII, and still does, should look up "Bowditch."
Oooooops!
- Bullwinkle58
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RE: Maritime Navigation
ORIGINAL: Lawless1
Former QM on fast attack boat in early 70's. Primary navigation was by DR,
supported by Loran A/C and SINS. Hard to use the sextant from the bridge
of a submarine. Bowditch's book was on board.
Our QMC had a sextant and knew how to use it, but I don't think we had a mechanical chronometer. We would have depended on electronic clocks. I'm fuzzy, but I think the weapons system got a time tick in the radio broadcast that was tied to the atomic clock at the naval observatory.
It's not well known, but boomers in the Polaris era (1960s), had a Type 11 periscope, made by Kollmorgen, that took star sights. It was computer driven, and had a reference database of about 50 stars. The computer knew about where the boat was from SINS, and picked a star to shoot. The operator put it on the star and (I think) the horizon was determined also from SINS, relieving the human from that critical chore. The computer cranked through the sight reduction in about thirty seconds and spit out a fix that was compared to the SINS version.
The Type 11s were removed in overhaul cycles as the boats upgraded to Poseidon. My boat in 1981 had a Type 2 and a Type 8. The Type 2 was a WWII fleet boat scope with the addition of a small ESM spike on the head. No power assist, and it was a bitch to turn when we were at PD doing over about four knots. The packings also leaked a lot in that case, so the OOD had fun.
The Moose
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RE: Maritime Navigation
My stepfather was an assistant quartermaster on a DE in SoPac during the war. One day, the quartermaster took him aside and urged him to really learn the craft quick, because the QM had plans to get off the ship. Basically he did a Corporal Klinger routine - getting himself dismissed due to mental problems.
So the captain of the ship tells my stepfather he's to take over navigation duties. My stepfather protests that he doesn't know enough and isn't experienced enough. The captain insists. My stepfather complies. He does the things he hopes will get his ship from Efate to Guadalcanal. When the Canal came into view a few days later he was one relieved young man.
He used a sextant and compass and charts and did calculations based on speed and I guess on tides and currents and winds (somehow allowing for drift) and it worked just like it was supposed to.
So the captain of the ship tells my stepfather he's to take over navigation duties. My stepfather protests that he doesn't know enough and isn't experienced enough. The captain insists. My stepfather complies. He does the things he hopes will get his ship from Efate to Guadalcanal. When the Canal came into view a few days later he was one relieved young man.
He used a sextant and compass and charts and did calculations based on speed and I guess on tides and currents and winds (somehow allowing for drift) and it worked just like it was supposed to.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: Maritime Navigation
Celestial navigation is has has been quite accurate for centuries and has never fully been replaced because it does not require power to use. In times of bad weather dead reckoning was used and courses could deviate quite a bit if the stars did not show for an extended period of time. Loran appeared in WWII and proved to be quite useful for Atlantic and Pacific convoys-especially towards the end of the war but there was a limit to the effective range of Loran-giving mariners dead zones out at sea. When you are running coastwise-which is what the majority of shipping traffic is doing at any given time, you just made use of running fixes by taking bearings of known lights and geographical fixtures. It is pretty simple to do. There are other tools as well. If you have a chart and your depth meter does not jibe with the chart then you know you are off course. If you run around, then you probably need to take another fix...[&:]
Subs during WWII were no different that any other ship since they basically operated on the surface the majority of time. Submerged their range was very limited and dead reckoning and sonar soundings helped keep track of the course.
Subs during WWII were no different that any other ship since they basically operated on the surface the majority of time. Submerged their range was very limited and dead reckoning and sonar soundings helped keep track of the course.
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg
RE: Maritime Navigation
In the pre GPS , LORAN. LORAN C or even RDF era , there was a story that I used to hear around the waterfronts of coastal Maine , where I grew up.
There was one captain that would navigate by Russet potatoes. In a thick fog , what they used to call a "pea-souper", he'd proceed dead slow. The mate would be as far forward on the bow as he could get. Then one-by-one , the mate would throw ahead of the vessel a potato, as far as he could. When the captain didn't hear a splash, he'd turn. [:D]
There was one captain that would navigate by Russet potatoes. In a thick fog , what they used to call a "pea-souper", he'd proceed dead slow. The mate would be as far forward on the bow as he could get. Then one-by-one , the mate would throw ahead of the vessel a potato, as far as he could. When the captain didn't hear a splash, he'd turn. [:D]
RE: Maritime Navigation
In the movie The 13th Warrior vikings did that with flaming arrows, listening for a splash and looking for it to show through the fog, proving it hit land. [:D]ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
In the pre GPS , LORAN. LORAN C or even RDF era , there was a story that I used to hear around the waterfronts of coastal Maine , where I grew up.
There was one captain that would navigate by Russet potatoes. In a thick fog , what they used to call a "pea-souper", he'd proceed dead slow. The mate would be as far forward on the bow as he could get. Then one-by-one , the mate would throw ahead of the vessel a potato, as far as he could. When the captain didn't hear a splash, he'd turn. [:D]
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
RE: Maritime Navigation
Or you could just follow, albeit at a distance, the ship ahead!
RE: Maritime Navigation
Ever hear of Honda Point?ORIGINAL: dr.hal
Or you could just follow, albeit at a distance, the ship ahead!
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RE: Maritime Navigation
Indeed I have. It's talked about at SWO School. My key words are "at a distance"......
RE: Maritime Navigation
ORIGINAL: crsutton
...
When you are running coastwise-which is what the majority of shipping traffic is doing at any given time, you just made use of running fixes by taking bearings of known lights and geographical fixtures. It is pretty simple to do.
...
Yep. bearings from coastal features works great, until the fog rolls in.
Happened to me once crossing Massachusetts Bay. Dead reckoned via speed and bearing, and wound up a good 3-4 miles off after a 50-mile run from Gloucester to the Cape Cod Canal.
RE: Maritime Navigation
ORIGINAL: Zorch
Ever hear of Honda Point?ORIGINAL: dr.hal
Or you could just follow, albeit at a distance, the ship ahead!
Like a mass beaching of whales.
WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer
RE: Maritime Navigation
ORIGINAL: sanch
ORIGINAL: crsutton
...
When you are running coastwise-which is what the majority of shipping traffic is doing at any given time, you just made use of running fixes by taking bearings of known lights and geographical fixtures. It is pretty simple to do.
...
Yep. bearings from coastal features works great, until the fog rolls in.
Happened to me once crossing Massachusetts Bay. Dead reckoned via speed and bearing, and wound up a good 3-4 miles off after a 50-mile run from Gloucester to the Cape Cod Canal.
Yes, but if you eventually found your way home then you did a great job and have a good sea story to boot...[;)]
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg
RE: Maritime Navigation
But the peanut gallery wants to know ... did your SHIP find its way home too? [:)]ORIGINAL: crsutton
ORIGINAL: sanch
ORIGINAL: crsutton
...
When you are running coastwise-which is what the majority of shipping traffic is doing at any given time, you just made use of running fixes by taking bearings of known lights and geographical fixtures. It is pretty simple to do.
...
Yep. bearings from coastal features works great, until the fog rolls in.
Happened to me once crossing Massachusetts Bay. Dead reckoned via speed and bearing, and wound up a good 3-4 miles off after a 50-mile run from Gloucester to the Cape Cod Canal.
Yes, but if you eventually found your way home then you did a great job and have a good sea story to boot...[;)]
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
RE: Maritime Navigation
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
But the peanut gallery wants to know ... did your SHIP find its way home too? [:)]
Yes, IIRC (this was probably 50 years ago - mid 60's) at about the same time the depth started shoaling fast, visibility went from 50 yards to perhaps 1/2 mile - enough to find landmarks and figure we were closer to Barnstable harbor than the canal entrance.
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RE: Maritime Navigation
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Yes, but if you eventually found your way home then you did a great job and have a good sea story to boot...[;)]
And we know the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story . . . [8D][;)]
The Moose
RE: Maritime Navigation
From 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Kirk Douglas sings:ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Yes, but if you eventually found your way home then you did a great job and have a good sea story to boot...[;)]
And we know the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story . . . [8D][;)]
"Iiii've a whale of a tale to tell you lads
A whale of a tale or two!
A whale of a tale and it's all true
I swear by my tattoo!
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth