Pilot Training : Defensive skill

[rustysi]

There was information having 1-2 pilots with good skill improves gains,

that was only ever just conjecture

Not conjecture. Check the Pilot Addendum. Whether or not it holds true today, I can only say that it appears so.

[InfiniteMonkey]

ORIGINAL: szmike
There was information having 1-2 pilots with good skill improves gains, but I don't know if it holds true with all the changes over the years.

The number of pilots and Exp of the pilots that are required varies. The key is that the high skill pilots raise the average experience of the unit. In my screenshot above, the numbers in the parenthesis above the skill heading are group averages. In that example, all the pilots below 38 Exp will get a bonus when training. The 6 x 62 exp pilots cause the group average (38) to be greater than the rest of the pilots in the squadron (35/36). All of the 35/36 Exp pilots will get a bonus when training.

Reports that suggest adding highly skilled pilots does not help in training are likely due to the fact that most players pull their pilots in from the replacement pool and take whatever they get.

Consider a squadron with 20 pilots drawn from replacements with the following Exp:

(27, 29, 29, 30, 31, 32, 32, 32, 32, 33, 34, 34, 35, 35, 35, 35, 36, 36, 38, 39).

Group Exp = 27 + 29 + 29 + 30 + 31 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 33 + 34 + 34 + 35 + 35 + 35 + 35 + 36 + 36 + 38 + 39=664
664 / 20 = 33 (fractions round down in virtually every calculation in WitP:AE)

Therefore, in that group the pilots with Exp = 27, 29, 29, 30, 31, 32, 32, 32, 32 will get a training bonus.

If I add a 70 skill pilot,

Group Exp = 27 + 29 + 29 + 30 + 31 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 33 + 34 + 34 + 35 + 35 + 35 + 35 + 36 + 36 + 38 + 39 + 70 = 734
734 / 21 = 34

Therefore, with the extra experienced pilot, the trainees with Exp = 27, 29, 29, 30, 31, 32, 32, 32, 32, 33 will get a training bonus.

If I add 2 x 70 skill pilots,

27 + 29 + 29 + 30 + 31 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 33 + 34 + 34 + 35 + 35 + 35 + 35 + 36 + 36 + 38 + 39 + 70 + 70 = 804
804 / 22 = 36

Therefore, with two experienced pilots, the trainees with Exp = 27, 29, 29, 30, 31, 32, 32, 32, 32, 33, 34, 34, 35, 35, 35, 35 will get a training bonus.

The problem is that anyone looking for those effects will be looking at a very small change in experience gain and conclude the bonus does not exist. In the example above, one experienced pilots gets precisely 1 pilot a bonus, while in the 2 pilot example, 7 pilots will get the bonus.

This is why I stratify my pilots. Consider the same example with all 35 skill pilots:

20 x 35 = 700
700/20 = 35 group Exp

20 x 35 + 70 = 770 = 36
All pilots get bonus from one experienced (exp = 70) pilot.

The bigger the squadron, the less experienced the "good" pilots, the wider the gap between the most and least experienced trainees, the more "good" pilots you need to maximize the bonus.

[ElvisDaKing]

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

ORIGINAL: szmike
There was information having 1-2 pilots with good skill improves gains, but I don't know if it holds true with all the changes over the years.

The number of pilots and Exp of the pilots that are required varies. The key is that the high skill pilots raise the average experience of the unit. In my screenshot above, the numbers in the parenthesis above the skill heading are group averages. In that example, all the pilots below 38 Exp will get a bonus when training. The 6 x 62 exp pilots cause the group average (38) to be greater than the rest of the pilots in the squadron (35/36). All of the 35/36 Exp pilots will get a bonus when training.

Reports that suggest adding highly skilled pilots does not help in training are likely due to the fact that most players pull their pilots in from the replacement pool and take whatever they get.

Consider a squadron with 20 pilots drawn from replacements with the following Exp:

(27, 29, 29, 30, 31, 32, 32, 32, 32, 33, 34, 34, 35, 35, 35, 35, 36, 36, 38, 39).

Group Exp = 27 + 29 + 29 + 30 + 31 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 33 + 34 + 34 + 35 + 35 + 35 + 35 + 36 + 36 + 38 + 39=664
664 / 20 = 33 (fractions round down in virtually every calculation in WitP:AE)

Therefore, in that group the pilots with Exp = 27, 29, 29, 30, 31, 32, 32, 32, 32 will get a training bonus.

If I add a 70 skill pilot,

Group Exp = 27 + 29 + 29 + 30 + 31 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 33 + 34 + 34 + 35 + 35 + 35 + 35 + 36 + 36 + 38 + 39 + 70 = 734
734 / 21 = 34

Therefore, with the extra experienced pilot, the trainees with Exp = 27, 29, 29, 30, 31, 32, 32, 32, 32, 33 will get a training bonus.

If I add 2 x 70 skill pilots,

27 + 29 + 29 + 30 + 31 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 33 + 34 + 34 + 35 + 35 + 35 + 35 + 36 + 36 + 38 + 39 + 70 + 70 = 804
804 / 22 = 36

Therefore, with two experienced pilots, the trainees with Exp = 27, 29, 29, 30, 31, 32, 32, 32, 32, 33, 34, 34, 35, 35, 35, 35 will get a training bonus.

The problem is that anyone looking for those effects will be looking at a very small change in experience gain and conclude the bonus does not exist. In the example above, one experienced pilots gets precisely 1 pilot a bonus, while in the 2 pilot example, 7 pilots will get the bonus.

This is why I stratify my pilots. Consider the same example with all 35 skill pilots:

20 x 35 = 700
700/20 = 35 group Exp

20 x 35 + 70 = 770 = 36
All pilots get bonus from one experienced (exp = 70) pilot.

The bigger the squadron, the less experienced the "good" pilots, the wider the gap between the most and least experienced trainees, the more "good" pilots you need to maximize the bonus.

Thanks
I didn t know about the training bonus
Does it apply on getting Experienve or also on increasing skills ?

I mean if I train pilots for Air skill and average Air skill pilot is 40 in the squadron, then all pilots with Air skill below 40 will get bonus ?


Currently I ve set up my IJN fighter pilots training as below
Recruits are sent to 2 x A5M4 training squadrons, resized 81 planes, to increasing their defensive skills : 100% Sweep training 100ft
It increases their defensive skill, but hardly Air skill and Experience
When they reach 60sh defensive skill, i send them to reserve pool
Then i send them from Reserve pool, filtering from highest Def skill, in 6 x F1M1 Pete squadrons, resized 24 airplanes, with 30% CAP / 70% Training.
When they reach 70sh Ait skill, then they are ready to join front line squadrons, so i send them back to pool
I am pulling out pilots from the Patrol reserve pool with highest Air skill.

For IJA management, it s a bit more complicated as no Patrol pilots pool, and have only Ki 27 squadrons for training (i am in May 1942 so don t have Ki-43 Ic to convert some training squadrons)
I need then to identify some Def skill training squadrons and some other Exp/Air training squadrons...

[Aurorus]

Many would consider using Akagi to resize air-groups to 81 "gamey." This is a very unrealistic size for an air-group. You can use Petes as fighter trainers and have a sufficient number of well-trained naval fighter pilots, if you do not over-produce A6M2s at the beginning of the game.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I don't think it was ever true - that was only ever just conjecture, and remains so.

I've run a pretty large set of sandbox tests on training and to this point I can tell you that ALL of the following affect the rate of pilot exp gain:

1. Number of aircraft - You should have the max aircraft available in the squadron for maximum rate of exp gain.
2. The leader - specifically the Leadership of the leader should be greater than the exp of all the pilots training in the group. To save PP, move the pilots, not the leader.
3. The group experience bonus - the reason for putting a few good pilots in the group is that they raise the group's average experience. If a pilot is below the group's average experience, they gain skill and exp faster.
4. The presence of 81+ skill pilots in the training group increases the rate of experience gain, but not as much as items 1-3 above do.

One thing I don't see anyone mention is pilot stratification. I stratify my pilots - I throw every pilot I have into the Reserve Pool and then pull them back into air groups by Exp. The effect of that is that I get the group exp bonus for all the trainees with a minimum number of advanced pilots. Note in the attached screenshot how every pilot is either 62 or 36 Exp (every pilot in the group is exp 62, 36, or 35). Every 36/35 pilot will get the group exp bonus when training. Compare that with an air group where pilots are loaded straight from the Replacement Pool, the range of pilots will range from about 28-40. It takes a lot more, and better, pilots to bring the average up so that all the trainee pilots get the group exp bonus.

Note by the way that all of the above bonuses are documented in the Pilot Management Addendum, C:\Matrix Games\War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition\Manuals\Pilot Management Addendum.pdf, Section 7. Training

As usual, Infinitemonkey, I find your posts to be well-informed and most helpful. This confirms, with some hard research, my anecdotal experience. Also, I never did the math necessary to fully appreciate the benefits of grouping pilots with like experience. Thank you for this helpful tip.

[ElvisDaKing]

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

Many would consider using Akagi to resize air-groups to 81 "gamey." This is a very unrealistic size for an air-group. You can use Petes as fighter trainers and have a sufficient number of well-trained naval fighter pilots, if you do not over-produce A6M2s at the beginning of the game.

I have only resized 2 groups of fighter, 1 group dive bomber and 1 torpedo bomber, and only for training purpose, and no other units especially if dedicated for frontline...

I can understand that resizing opetational LBA frontline sqiadrons can be questionnable and should be discussed with opponent, but cannot agree that it is 'gsmey',.

[InfiniteMonkey]

ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing
Does it apply on getting Experienve or also on increasing skills ?

I mean if I train pilots for Air skill and average Air skill pilot is 40 in the squadron, then all pilots with Air skill below 40 will get bonus ?

Honestly, I'm not sure. There is always a strong correlation between (Individual Pilot Exp vs Group Avg Exp) and rate of gain for both skills and Exp. The fact that skills seem correlated may simply be because there is a correlation between Exp and Skill for random pilots. I have not looked enough at group average skills versus individual pilot skill. However, I would tend to avoid grouping by skill level simply because skills change so quickly that keeping them close together would take micromanagement to a level I'm not interested in without computer support.

Additionally, the Pilot Management Addendum singles out Exp as the trigger for the bonus, even though it applies to skills and Exp both:

ORIGINAL: Pilot Management Addendum.pdf, Section 7. Training

"if the pilot’s experience is less 50 (plus pilot’s missions and kills) and less than the overall group experience level"

[Macclan5]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

It's worth noting that when you pull a pilot from replacements, the pilots skills are generated based on the unit type. Later in the war, Allied pilot average skills (and XP) for replacement pools is at least around 40. If you're out of trained pilots for a unit type, it's better to just pull in from replacements than your cross-trained pilots as you mentioned above.

Example: Fighter pilot that had randomized general training for a while and has NavB/NavT skills in the 30s. Better to pull from Replacements(40), as the NavB/NavT will be about 40 in that case.

This is an excellent tutorial - my thanks <tips hat>

I have been a dutiful micro manager of "west coast training".. building up and then releasing pilots to "general reserve" with all those USAAF 4th squadrons, USMC, and even those all too few Naval Squadrons of i.e. Hellcats associated with SoPac that I can utilize for building reserves.

But your point above now informs me of the "why consequences down the road". [:)]

Pilot Training / TRACOM often come up as a newbie question.

Often the answer in this game is "it depends".

But you have clearly informed me of something important I missed in reading the manual and/or is a great addition to the library of newbie knowledge.

[styer27]

Can someone please explain why my pilots list doesnt look like this, i have no options down the bottom to release pilots, or an option on the right to "RETAIN"

am i missing a patch or soemthing?

[Yaab]

Yep, you missed a patch.

Install the latest beta patch from here:
tm.asp?m=3185062

Or the latest official patch from here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/351/downloads/

[styer27]

TYVM for the links, cant believe i missed these.

Please tell me i dont have to restart my game to add it.

[styer27]

Mirrors for the second patch were expired, but i did find it here incase anyone else has the same problem.

https://www.gamepressure.com/download.asp?ID=56917

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: styer27

TYVM for the links, cant believe i missed these.

Please tell me i dont have to restart my game to add it.

I don't think you have to restart. The patches should only affect the game's EXE file.

[styer27]

When i try to load my old save it gives me an error if i try to use the new exe. Its a disappointing shame but i blame myself for not checking for patches before starting my campaign. Plus i was a little newbish when i started, made a mess of my aircraft production, so starting again with all these new additions isnt so bad. Browsing through the new changes im extremely impressed, now i can remove "that pilot" from my torpedo bombing squadron who has 88 air, and a stupidly low 22 Tbombing, how on earth he get there in the first place? haha. The thought of being able to pull out my 40 best pilots and placing them into one leet squadron has me excited. Maybe now i can solve that problem with Lightning long range fighters appearing mid 42 and mincing my best zero pilots lie swiss cheese.

Thanks to whoever created this wonderful patch, though i wish it had of been included in the default purchase download from matrix games site.

[rustysi]

When i try to load my old save it gives me an error if i try to use the new exe.

What does it say? If something like 'saved under level xx.xxxx.x', you should be able to just hit enter or something and move on. I've had that at times when I've upgraded. I don't remember the exact phrase that comes up because I rarely do a patch while in a campaign.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Training sweep at 100m seems to be the best way for fighters to gain Def, after they are 70 in Air. But training any other skill also will increase Def

I prefer ground attack at 100 feet - trains Strafe and Defense.

Not statistically proven - and I am no veteran expert compared to the above - but for fighter back base hubs :

Train "General" (often Rest mode) Alt = 15000 Range 1 for about a month

Train "Escort" Alt = 15000 Range 1 for about a month

Train Ground Attack Alt = 100 Range 1 for about a month.

--

I think Train general is often under recommended.

When drawing from reserve I rarely hand pick select pilots. Having at least a 'base grade' is very helpful.

In 90 ++ days I seem to "generally end up" with a Fighter pilot screen practically all orange and green.

Overall Experience ~ 50+ Overall Air ~ 60 + Overall Defense ~ 60+ and nothing less than 25 in most every category (albeit Nav can be lower).

Now of course there is always a few remedial learners at the bottom of the list...but dump the "release top 10 - release top 10" into general reserve and start over.

How do you hand pick select pilots? I don't see any option for this?

[Trugrit]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna




I prefer ground attack at 100 feet - trains Strafe and Defense.

Not statistically proven - and I am no veteran expert compared to the above - but for fighter back base hubs :

Train "General" (often Rest mode) Alt = 15000 Range 1 for about a month

Train "Escort" Alt = 15000 Range 1 for about a month

Train Ground Attack Alt = 100 Range 1 for about a month.

--

I think Train general is often under recommended.

When drawing from reserve I rarely hand pick select pilots. Having at least a 'base grade' is very helpful.

In 90 ++ days I seem to "generally end up" with a Fighter pilot screen practically all orange and green.

Overall Experience ~ 50+ Overall Air ~ 60 + Overall Defense ~ 60+ and nothing less than 25 in most every category (albeit Nav can be lower).

Now of course there is always a few remedial learners at the bottom of the list...but dump the "release top 10 - release top 10" into general reserve and start over.

How do you hand pick select pilots? I don't see any option for this?

You use the Request Veteran option.

Here are a few threads
Study Up:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2336680

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2369120

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2383011

[Moltrey]

I have a question regarding pilots I keep forgetting to ask, so here goes:

When I need to request additional pilots in a given squadron, which pool should I pick from?
&
What if any advantages or disadvantages do each present?

THANKS!!

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

I have a question regarding pilots I keep forgetting to ask, so here goes:

When I need to request additional pilots in a given squadron, which pool should I pick from?
&
What if any advantages or disadvantages do each present?

THANKS!!

That all depends upon what do you want the pilots for.

[Moltrey]

Elaboration please. I just don't understand the choices involved in pulling from the different pools other than the default presented to us.