I'm playing a scenario in 1989 and having a difficult time taking out a Soviet surface fleet. In thinking of making use of some F-111's stationed in range. I know they can carry 4 AGM-84 Harpoons each or several HARMs each as well as various dumb and guided bombs. Was thinking of loading 4 with Harms (which seem to get destroyed by SAMs easily and follow up with the other 4 loaded with ordinance.
I'm debating 1 of 3 options for the 4 F-111s:
1. Come in as low as possible, pop up and use Paveway laser guided bombs.
2. Come in as low as possible and drop retarded iron bombs or cluster bombs
Or
3. Use harpoons and risk having them shot down.
If anyone has had experience using F-111 for maritime strikes, what do you think is best? Or is this a disaster waiting to happen. I will be att king2 destroyers and a frigate with some tenders present. The strike package will be supported by a navy EA-6B prowler.
F-111 maritime strike use
Moderator: MOD_Command
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
i would never attempt to bomb a ship if the year is greater than 1945
try to coordinate the TOT of a mass launch of HARMs and harpoons is your best bet. if you think that the harpoons are too easy to shoot down, you can probably hold your fire until you are a little closer which should help give them more targets (have to pick between planes + missiles + HARMs and OODA limitations might make it slightly harder)
approach as low as possible to exploit horizon problems for the ships. high is a no-go as it conveys no advantage in this situation.
if the destroyers + frigate are well defended for point defense, it may be better to "front-load" ARMs. consider taking 6 HARMs instead of 4/4 mix. while HARMs are a pretty garbage ASHM (fragmentation warhead) it's much faster and will likely generate far more hits. since every hit is at least one useful radar dead, hits are good and enable any follow-on strikes to be successful.
if not then 4/4 is likely fine.
out of interest what sort of destroyers are we talking? depending on what ships they are their point defense may be low to nonexistent in which case 8 harpoon-carrying aircraft will do the job.
try to coordinate the TOT of a mass launch of HARMs and harpoons is your best bet. if you think that the harpoons are too easy to shoot down, you can probably hold your fire until you are a little closer which should help give them more targets (have to pick between planes + missiles + HARMs and OODA limitations might make it slightly harder)
approach as low as possible to exploit horizon problems for the ships. high is a no-go as it conveys no advantage in this situation.
if the destroyers + frigate are well defended for point defense, it may be better to "front-load" ARMs. consider taking 6 HARMs instead of 4/4 mix. while HARMs are a pretty garbage ASHM (fragmentation warhead) it's much faster and will likely generate far more hits. since every hit is at least one useful radar dead, hits are good and enable any follow-on strikes to be successful.
if not then 4/4 is likely fine.
out of interest what sort of destroyers are we talking? depending on what ships they are their point defense may be low to nonexistent in which case 8 harpoon-carrying aircraft will do the job.
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
If the fleet's defenses can stop HARMS, they can stop Harpoons, and they definitely can stop direct bombing attempts.
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AlphaSierra
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RE: F-111 maritime strike use
One could presumably shoot tomahawks at them until they are out of bullets.
I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way. -John Paul Jones
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
Well keep in mind that I would be coming in on the deck as fast as I can and drop cluster munitions or retarded bombs. Biggest ship is a frigate and a destroyer and the rest are corvette types. Not the preferred method of attack but if I'm going to be short on anti-shit muscles I think it could work. Their radar so would not be able to pick me up until one extremely close and moving that fast they wouldn't have much time. Worth a shot anyway. I know the Navy used a – six intruders dropping it rock I cluster bombs to take out a number of Libyan ships in 1986 but of course they were just fast patrol boats.
The key I guess would be keeping 20 feet off the deck and moving in just sub sonic
The key I guess would be keeping 20 feet off the deck and moving in just sub sonic
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
Love the idea, here's what I'd try a combination of HARMs and Harpoons. It's always better to shoot off missiles and have them be shot down than lose aircraft. Forcing the enemy to exhaust his inventory of SAMs in self defense is frequently a perfectly good tactic.
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
ORIGINAL: SeaQueen
Love the idea, here's what I'd try a combination of HARMs and Harpoons. It's always better to shoot off missiles and have them be shot down than lose aircraft. Forcing the enemy to exhaust his inventory of SAMs in self defense is frequently a perfectly good tactic.
Love the idea, here's what I'd try a combination of HARMs and Harpoons. It's always better to shoot off missiles and have them be shot down than lose aircraft. Forcing the enemy to exhaust his inventory of SAMs in self defense is frequently a perfectly good tactic.
This, yes....and THEN follow up with you low level, on the deck Aardvark strike in the hopes that he has no SAM's left in the proverbial tank
"I say again, expend ALL remaining in my perimeter!" - Platoon
"This is JB27, on target...fire for effect.." - Me
"This is JB27, on target...fire for effect.." - Me
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
ORIGINAL: mikeCK
I know the Navy used [..] six intruders dropping [..] Rockeye cluster bombs to take out a number of Libyan ships in 1986 but of course they were just fast patrol boats.
The key there is that they were just patrol boats with little if any air defense. Dropping cluster bombs on things that can shoot at you on your ingress and egress, is a whole different business!
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Rory Noonan
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- Location: Brooklyn, NY
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
ORIGINAL: mikeCK
Well keep in mind that I would be coming in on the deck as fast as I can and drop cluster munitions or retarded bombs. Biggest ship is a frigate and a destroyer and the rest are corvette types. Not the preferred method of attack but if I'm going to be short on anti-shit muscles I think it could work. Their radar so would not be able to pick me up until one extremely close and moving that fast they wouldn't have much time. Worth a shot anyway. I know the Navy used a – six intruders dropping it rock I cluster bombs to take out a number of Libyan ships in 1986 but of course they were just fast patrol boats.
The key I guess would be keeping 20 feet off the deck and moving in just sub sonic
I worked out how much time the enemy would have if your F-111s were moving at 850kts at an altitude of 500ft, and the enemy was a Sovremenny destroyer. You would be over the radar horizon for nearly 3 minutes. Well and truly enough time for them to OODA and start shooting down your F-111s.
I am a big fan of fast low level dumb bomb strikes. I don't think this situation works well for it though.
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
^ yeah, bombing anything with PD is suicide.
even if you commit the aardvarks and "waste" the missiles hoping for a golden BB, it's still a better trade than wasting several aardvarks on a mission with near-zero chance of success.
if the ships are really so important that they are worth destroying, it is worth expending the ASHM/ARM to destroy them. otherwise we wouldn't even be talking about this scenario.
even if you commit the aardvarks and "waste" the missiles hoping for a golden BB, it's still a better trade than wasting several aardvarks on a mission with near-zero chance of success.
if the ships are really so important that they are worth destroying, it is worth expending the ASHM/ARM to destroy them. otherwise we wouldn't even be talking about this scenario.
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
I like to stream in Harpoons and hold back HARMs until the ship formation begins lighting up against Harpoons. This gives you lots of FCRs to target and gives the AI a tough choice between going after sea-skimming ASMs or high-speed ARMs. Usually it enables lots of ARM hits which then aids the remaining Harpoons to get to target.
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
That does seem like the best way to do it, but I guess the timing for the HARMs is crucial.
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
Stimulating them to light up their FCRs is smart, because if you can take a few of the FCRs out as they do it, your next salvo of ASCMs is more likely to be successful.
I like to stream in Harpoons and hold back HARMs until the ship formation begins lighting up against Harpoons. This gives you lots of FCRs to target and gives the AI a tough choice between going after sea-skimming ASMs or high-speed ARMs. Usually it enables lots of ARM hits which then aids the remaining Harpoons to get to target.
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BrianinMinnie
- Posts: 158
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RE: F-111 maritime strike use
Is Toss Bombing simulated in the game? could you High speed, low level dash in, lift your nose, toss 16 dumb bombs, then turn back down to the dirt before catching a face full of sams?
Maybe have a wingman firing ARMs at the same time to keep the radars head down?
I realize this was a nuke tactic from the old days but could you pull it off with Modern Iron bombs?
Maybe have a wingman firing ARMs at the same time to keep the radars head down?
I realize this was a nuke tactic from the old days but could you pull it off with Modern Iron bombs?
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
it isn't simulated, and it would be arguably useless anyway. toss bombing doesn't have the range to throw over the horizon, so you'd end up in the SAM WEZ well before you entered throw range.
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
Well guys, I appreciate the input. I think I'm going to give it a shot and see. I have a strike package set up with an E/F-111, 4 F-16s with HARM missles, an F-18 with TALD in support and 8 F-111s. The overall issues is that in the scantily, I only have one carrier and there are ALOT of enemy ships broken down into 3 flotillas. I really have to save my harpoons so I'd rather not use them on frigates, corvettes or patrol boats.
So the plan is to have the F-18 fire off the TALD Package south of the targets while the strike package (except for the EF-111) approach low on the deck. As the radars light up, the F-16s will fire Harms. Hopefully I can time it right so that the F-111s are coming over the horizon as the Harms are coming in. I have armed the F-111s with 500 lb retarded bombs and cluster bombs. One pass.
Again, not the preferred way to attack but I have limited ammo and most of the ships are patrol boats. The Frigate concerns me but it's only one and without VLS, I'm not sure it can get missiles off fast enough. EF-111 should help as well.
It's the "First Salvo" scenario from "The war that Never was" with the F-111s edited in. I'm attacking that flotilla of "OSHA" (so?) patrol craft and the nearby fleet containing a Krivak and Sovremmeny I believe. I won't be targeting those two and since they are behind by 10 NM or so, maybe they can be avoided.
It's scenarios like this when I wish the US had a supersonic ASM
So the plan is to have the F-18 fire off the TALD Package south of the targets while the strike package (except for the EF-111) approach low on the deck. As the radars light up, the F-16s will fire Harms. Hopefully I can time it right so that the F-111s are coming over the horizon as the Harms are coming in. I have armed the F-111s with 500 lb retarded bombs and cluster bombs. One pass.
Again, not the preferred way to attack but I have limited ammo and most of the ships are patrol boats. The Frigate concerns me but it's only one and without VLS, I'm not sure it can get missiles off fast enough. EF-111 should help as well.
It's the "First Salvo" scenario from "The war that Never was" with the F-111s edited in. I'm attacking that flotilla of "OSHA" (so?) patrol craft and the nearby fleet containing a Krivak and Sovremmeny I believe. I won't be targeting those two and since they are behind by 10 NM or so, maybe they can be avoided.
It's scenarios like this when I wish the US had a supersonic ASM
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
i really would avoid using bombs against ships unless those ships are entirely disarmed and you are bombing with LGBs from angels 18+
even then, it's marginal.
even then, it's marginal.
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CCIP-subsim
- Posts: 467
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RE: F-111 maritime strike use
Now, to be fair - there's a lot of ASuW done by platforms slower and heftier than the F-111, and bombs dumber than LGBs - but it's usually against low-tech opposition where the occasional MANPADS are about the most dangerous threat faced. I don't doubt the F-111 would be excellent in that role, but I wouldn't suggest it as a primary ship-killer.
I do also remember that with Northern Inferno, I'd used Buccaneers in a sort of similar fashion - where I'd first make an attack against corvettes/destroyers with ARMs/ASMs to disable their defences and sensors (even temporarily), and then have bomb-armed aircraft and swoop in and do a low-altitude delivery of some bombs to finish the job before the ships could do even the most basic repairs. It actually mostly worked.
I do also remember that with Northern Inferno, I'd used Buccaneers in a sort of similar fashion - where I'd first make an attack against corvettes/destroyers with ARMs/ASMs to disable their defences and sensors (even temporarily), and then have bomb-armed aircraft and swoop in and do a low-altitude delivery of some bombs to finish the job before the ships could do even the most basic repairs. It actually mostly worked.
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
ORIGINAL: BrianinMinnie
Is Toss Bombing simulated in the game? could you High speed, low level dash in, lift your nose, toss 16 dumb bombs, then turn back down to the dirt before catching a face full of sams?
Maybe have a wingman firing ARMs at the same time to keep the radars head down?
I realize this was a nuke tactic from the old days but could you pull it off with Modern Iron bombs?
Currently the best way to simulate this would be to use GBU-24 Paveway 3 (A specialist low level version of Paveway) weapons, that should have a load out in the Database , the minimum release height is 2000ft, (Which is wrong like most PGM heights in CMANO) , RAF practice was to pitch up to 30 deg, and let the computer release the bombs at somewhere around 1500-1700 ft, this worked for both land attack using unguided bombs and paveway deliveries.
RAF buccaneers trained in low level toss deliveries with Paveway 1 , leading me to suspect that the tactics of the 70-80s Buccaneer strikes would have been a mix of ARM Martel, TV Martel and LGB/Pave Spike equipped flights attacking from multiple directions simoultaneously
ORIGINAL: Cik
it isn't simulated, and it would be arguably useless anyway. toss bombing doesn't have the range to throw over the horizon, so you'd end up in the SAM WEZ well before you entered throw range.
Low level attacks seemed to work well for the Argentinians in 1982 [&:]
Butch
RE: F-111 maritime strike use
worked well due to the RN being thousands of miles from base, spread thin and with relatively old hardware not suited to the operational environment as far as i know.
i'd have to look at what ships he's trying to bomb but if they have a few SA-9/13 a piece + guns of whatever type low-level is likely suicide. toss attacks with LGBs would work ~slightly better (depending on defenses) but we don't have the capability in-sim and he's not using LGBs anyway. the best options are:
low level attack with harpoons backed up by HARMs
repeated HARM attacks until enemy stops radiating and then use high-altitude LGB attacks
torpedoes
you can use mk82/84-laden aardvarks to clean up non-defended targets on the sea if you want but i'd never make low level attacks against anything defended by radar/IR SAMs. in particular the difference between soviet ship defense capabilities and what the brits fielded in the falklands is pretty large i think. what did the RN have at the time? unless i'm wrong it would be pretty junk SARH radar SAMs and blowpipes (also pretty junk) what results is a hole in their defenses low level (due to radar / IR clutter) the soviets will likely not have that problem as their newer SA-9/13 should not have a great deal of problems attacking targets running low. in order to release bombs at low level at a target you have to fly pretty much right over it and i really doubt they would survive doing so.
i'd have to look at what ships he's trying to bomb but if they have a few SA-9/13 a piece + guns of whatever type low-level is likely suicide. toss attacks with LGBs would work ~slightly better (depending on defenses) but we don't have the capability in-sim and he's not using LGBs anyway. the best options are:
low level attack with harpoons backed up by HARMs
repeated HARM attacks until enemy stops radiating and then use high-altitude LGB attacks
torpedoes
you can use mk82/84-laden aardvarks to clean up non-defended targets on the sea if you want but i'd never make low level attacks against anything defended by radar/IR SAMs. in particular the difference between soviet ship defense capabilities and what the brits fielded in the falklands is pretty large i think. what did the RN have at the time? unless i'm wrong it would be pretty junk SARH radar SAMs and blowpipes (also pretty junk) what results is a hole in their defenses low level (due to radar / IR clutter) the soviets will likely not have that problem as their newer SA-9/13 should not have a great deal of problems attacking targets running low. in order to release bombs at low level at a target you have to fly pretty much right over it and i really doubt they would survive doing so.