Why Bother
Moderators: Joel Billings, elmo3, Sabre21
Why Bother
So it is turn 12, and at last I see a Rumanian Cav Brigade I can have a crack at.
So I bomb it twice killing 39 and 42 respectively. (I micro manage the Red Air Force).
Then I deliberate attack with 2 divs, odds come out at 12:1, I force a retreat, and kill, wait for it, 4. (I lost 294.)
I assume they fell off their horse during the retreat. [:D]
There is no value for the Soviet in attacking and makes for a very boring game.
Please give us some incentive to play historically.
So I bomb it twice killing 39 and 42 respectively. (I micro manage the Red Air Force).
Then I deliberate attack with 2 divs, odds come out at 12:1, I force a retreat, and kill, wait for it, 4. (I lost 294.)
I assume they fell off their horse during the retreat. [:D]
There is no value for the Soviet in attacking and makes for a very boring game.
Please give us some incentive to play historically.
Molotov : This we did not deserve.
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
- EwaldvonKleist
- Posts: 2365
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:58 pm
- Location: Berlin, Germany
RE: Why Bother
1) It gives you guard units if you collected enough victories.
2) You can get okish loss ratios by attacking if you put the retreat path under ZOC, force retreat over a river or over multiple hexagons due to overstacking. Especially German artillery seems to suffer retreat losses, which will increase the man to gun ratio over time (ask Dinglir )
3) After an attack you can bomb a unit again 2 times. It will have detection level 10, high fatigue and no fort level, which makes it a juicy target.
4) Attacks can restore the cohesion of the defence line, e.g. if you push a bridghead back over the river.
5) There are some "magic" morale values which make a unit pay 2 instead of 3 MPs to enter an enemy hexagon. Its 81 for infantry and 86 for motorized units. With some luck you can push the German units below the limit with a counterattack.
2) You can get okish loss ratios by attacking if you put the retreat path under ZOC, force retreat over a river or over multiple hexagons due to overstacking. Especially German artillery seems to suffer retreat losses, which will increase the man to gun ratio over time (ask Dinglir )
3) After an attack you can bomb a unit again 2 times. It will have detection level 10, high fatigue and no fort level, which makes it a juicy target.
4) Attacks can restore the cohesion of the defence line, e.g. if you push a bridghead back over the river.
5) There are some "magic" morale values which make a unit pay 2 instead of 3 MPs to enter an enemy hexagon. Its 81 for infantry and 86 for motorized units. With some luck you can push the German units below the limit with a counterattack.
The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players
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Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players
WitE2&RtW3 tester
RE: Why Bother
Which gives you extra admin doesn't it? perhaps throwing paper clips might get the kill count up to 5.[:D]ORIGINAL: Stelteck
Winning fight will give your divisions guard status [;)]
Molotov : This we did not deserve.
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
RE: Why Bother
ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
1) It gives you guard units if you collected enough victories.
2) You can get okish loss ratios by attacking if you put the retreat path under ZOC, force retreat over a river or over multiple hexagons due to overstacking. Especially German artillery seems to suffer retreat losses, which will increase the man to gun ratio over time (ask Dinglir )
3) After an attack you can bomb a unit again 2 times. It will have detection level 10, high fatigue and no fort level, which makes it a juicy target.
4) Attacks can restore the cohesion of the defence line, e.g. if you push a bridghead back over the river.
5) There are some "magic" morale values which make a unit pay 2 instead of 3 MPs to enter an enemy hexagon. Its 81 for infantry and 86 for motorized units. With some luck you can push the German units below the limit with a counterattack.
1) agree gives you extra admin
2) agree, but this is turn 12, and not appropriate for this stage of the game as to advance means encirclement.
3) of course i did that and it killed only 25 (keep this a secret but best bombing results are achieved by having a division next to the unit you are bombing)
4) true
5) hope so
The point I am making is that 20k soldiers, 200 art and 10 afv attacking at odds of 12 to 1 kills 4. This is pure unadulterated fat free bull manure. 60 odd tactical bombers kill 5, go figure.
Molotov : This we did not deserve.
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
RE: Why Bother
Which gives you extra admin doesn't it? perhaps throwing paper clips might get the kill count up to 5.[:D]
Guard rifle divisions have +10 morale and a new dedicated better equiped table of equipment.
55xp Guard rifle divisions have twice the combat value of regular 45XP rifle division.
Brakes are for cowards !!
RE: Why Bother
You need also to look at how much ammunition, leadership, terrain etc your attacking units have. The mechanics specify that each element, in turn, will:
1) attempt to get into position to fire
2) try to hit an opposing element
3) calculate the effect of any hits.
Low ammo, terrible leadership, fortification levels etc can kill off any attack in early 41. I remember wathcing the detailed attack reports some while ago, when I attacked a German Panzer Regiment with five Soviet divisions. I noticed how the soviets advanced against withering German fire and looked very much forward to the time when it was the soviet turn to fire back. When the time came, it turned out, there were no soviets still in good order capable of firing at all. Result was that my attack faltered with some 3.000 losses for nothing.
I guess in your case, the 2.000 men of the Rumanian cavalry brigade sat in a plains hex and basically saw 20.000 Soviet soldiers appear on the horizon, screaming "Urrah" while advancing on foot. The Rumanians then (wisely) decided to stay out of reach of the Soviets and simply withdrew.
Your four losses were probably the four people in the brigade without a sense of direction.
1) attempt to get into position to fire
2) try to hit an opposing element
3) calculate the effect of any hits.
Low ammo, terrible leadership, fortification levels etc can kill off any attack in early 41. I remember wathcing the detailed attack reports some while ago, when I attacked a German Panzer Regiment with five Soviet divisions. I noticed how the soviets advanced against withering German fire and looked very much forward to the time when it was the soviet turn to fire back. When the time came, it turned out, there were no soviets still in good order capable of firing at all. Result was that my attack faltered with some 3.000 losses for nothing.
I guess in your case, the 2.000 men of the Rumanian cavalry brigade sat in a plains hex and basically saw 20.000 Soviet soldiers appear on the horizon, screaming "Urrah" while advancing on foot. The Rumanians then (wisely) decided to stay out of reach of the Soviets and simply withdrew.
Your four losses were probably the four people in the brigade without a sense of direction.
To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra
RE: Why Bother
ORIGINAL: johntoml56
3) of course i did that and it killed only 25 (keep this a secret but best bombing results are achieved by having a division next to the unit you are bombing)
Because of the detection level
Wargamers Discord https://discord.gg/U6DcDxT
RE: Why Bother
ORIGINAL: Stelteck
Which gives you extra admin doesn't it? perhaps throwing paper clips might get the kill count up to 5.[:D]
Guard rifle divisions have +10 morale and a new dedicated better equiped table of equipment.
55xp Guard rifle divisions have twice the combat value of regular 45XP rifle division.
Just to clarify the morale bonus increases the max morale capacity by 10 points from eg 45 to 55. There appears to be no difference in the TOE for a Guards vs Non Guards Rifle Division.
Molotov : This we did not deserve.
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
RE: Why Bother
Most TO&Es of combat units change over time. Initially the TO&E of a 41a guards rifle division and a 41b rifle division are indeed the same. In December 1941 both TO&E's change and are still the same. In March 1942 however, you will see a difference.
RE: Why Bother
With 20,000 reds only killing 4 I dont like my chances of seeing 1942.ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Most TO&Es of combat units change over time. Initially the TO&E of a 41a guards rifle division and a 41b rifle division are indeed the same. In December 1941 both TO&E's change and are still the same. In March 1942 however, you will see a difference.
Molotov : This we did not deserve.
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
RE: Why Bother
Sounds like you need to focus on how to defend and not attack. As far as an incentive to play "historically" can you please give me an example of a Russian counter offensive that was successful before the winter of 41? If not it would appear that what you're experiencing is rather historical. That being said, I hope the VP system changes in WITE2 so that there is a good incentive to hold cities for "just one more turn". This could generate some of the suicidal defense with large pockets we've been lacking in MP.
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- Posts: 134
- Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:50 pm
RE: Why Bother
What happened here is the exact opposite of historical, johnntoml actually got the hex (successful offensive) with minimal german/romanian losses. What happened historically, were heavy (heavier for the soviets, but still) losses for both sides with axis (usually) holding their ground. Of course there are probably many incidents in both history and gameplay with many different outcomes.
RE: Why Bother
There was a lot of soviet "successfull", at least at start, offensive in 1941. Like in august 1941 3 soviet armies manage to disrupt the german march to Leningrad for 3 weeks around Staraïa Roussa.
They never succeeded in long term because the germans reacted quickly and the soviet did not manage to follow up, replenish their troops and exploits their early success. So their attack force were crushed.
I'am not sûre you can perform such an offensive in the game against a good german player [;)]. Except for the part "getting crushed" of course.
3 weeks is 3 turns in game, it is quite long. Maybe you can disrupt the offensive 2 weeks. (The first turn you are encercled, the second destroyed [:D]).
They never succeeded in long term because the germans reacted quickly and the soviet did not manage to follow up, replenish their troops and exploits their early success. So their attack force were crushed.
I'am not sûre you can perform such an offensive in the game against a good german player [;)]. Except for the part "getting crushed" of course.
3 weeks is 3 turns in game, it is quite long. Maybe you can disrupt the offensive 2 weeks. (The first turn you are encercled, the second destroyed [:D]).
Brakes are for cowards !!
RE: Why Bother
ORIGINAL: robinsa
Sounds like you need to focus on how to defend and not attack. As far as an incentive to play "historically" can you please give me an example of a Russian counter offensive that was successful before the winter of 41? If not it would appear that what you're experiencing is rather historical. That being said, I hope the VP system changes in WITE2 so that there is a good incentive to hold cities for "just one more turn". This could generate some of the suicidal defense with large pockets we've been lacking in MP.
(where is that one tank that mauled a Panzer division when you need it)
Well as they say in the 'classifieds' I will have a crack at this. By June 23 the Germans realised that this was a different war as in the West - some of the enemy fought back to the death. From memory they held out for 3 weeks in the fortress at BL, which i admit is not a counter offensive.
Lets just say that the Germans called off their drive on Leningrad because they were exhausted by the constant Russian counter attacks. And to be fair the game does have attrition that simulates this.
I have played a couple of historical games and my defense was very good in those but when they do the large Lvov pocket and get their HQBUs going etc I am in big trouble. In that situation I could just run away and perhaps someone could develop a retreat app to do this (and march reinforcements east) for me and I could get active again at T17.
What I am really trying to say is that the game has to be interesting/ hopeful/ entertaining for both players and I am still really pissed that a squadron of like 10 IL2s can kill more of the enenmy than a 2 div counter attack that forces a retreat.
Cultural Note : I am using the word pissed in its US meaning of angry and not the Australian as in drunk.
Molotov : This we did not deserve.
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
RE: Why Bother
ORIGINAL: robinsa
Sounds like you need to focus on how to defend and not attack. As far as an incentive to play "historically" can you please give me an example of a Russian counter offensive that was successful before the winter of 41? If not it would appear that what you're experiencing is rather historical. That being said, I hope the VP system changes in WITE2 so that there is a good incentive to hold cities for "just one more turn". This could generate some of the suicidal defense with large pockets we've been lacking in MP.
Elnya
RE: Why Bother
If you have the stomach for it you should read Glatz's 3 volume "Barbarossa derailed"
In a nutshell: although the Germans did capture Smolensk and claim to have captured 100K+ prisoners, the Russians launched no less than 3 offensives to relieve the trapped troops. Indeed, the Germans never really succeeded in completely closing the gap and suffered heavy losses.
I suppose it's what you call a success...
In a nutshell: although the Germans did capture Smolensk and claim to have captured 100K+ prisoners, the Russians launched no less than 3 offensives to relieve the trapped troops. Indeed, the Germans never really succeeded in completely closing the gap and suffered heavy losses.
I suppose it's what you call a success...
RE: Why Bother
ORIGINAL: glvaca
If you have the stomach for it you should read Glatz's 3 volume "Barbarossa derailed"
In a nutshell: although the Germans did capture Smolensk and claim to have captured 100K+ prisoners, the Russians launched no less than 3 offensives to relieve the trapped troops. Indeed, the Germans never really succeeded in completely closing the gap and suffered heavy losses.
I suppose it's what you call a success...
The lesson I took from Glantz's and other's work was that by then the Axis offensive had stalled and motorised units were being used almost only tactically and for firefighting gaps. What changed was the decision to pull 2 Panzer Group out and send it South through a soft spot and on to the encirclement of Kiev. This huge hole in the Soviet front then led to a further collapse of the Soviet lines. This was very much at Hitler's insistence over his generals. The alternative history would have been lines stabilising round about where they were in September/October. A completely different take from the Hitler "stopped the march on Moscow and lost the war" line often advocated.
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RE: Why Bother
I will have to admit I did not read the first post properly and it seems I missed the point with the Germans taking no losses despite a Soviet victory. That is a problem agreed.
As for Soviet counter attacks in 41' there were plenty as you have shown but Ive always understood their impact and scale as limited. Granted I am no expert on the subject and might be mistaken here. Ive understood Soviet offensives in 41' as local and used to delay the enemy. Translated to the game: you should be able to retake a hex or two once in a while when the German player makes a mistake but not any larger counter offensives.
As for Soviet counter attacks in 41' there were plenty as you have shown but Ive always understood their impact and scale as limited. Granted I am no expert on the subject and might be mistaken here. Ive understood Soviet offensives in 41' as local and used to delay the enemy. Translated to the game: you should be able to retake a hex or two once in a while when the German player makes a mistake but not any larger counter offensives.