CV Lexington/Saratoga Alt Re-fit

[Admiral DadMan]

If Saratoga (Lexington) got more 5"/38 Single Open Pedestal Mark 24 mount guns on sponsons instead of the Twin mount Enclosed Base Ring Mark 32. Also, 3rd elevator installed (deck edge as in Essex):

[DOCUP]

You do good work Admiral.

[Admiral DadMan]

Thank you. One of these days, I'm going to have to put all my crazy ideas together and make a mod.

Most of all, I would really love to clean up some of the Allied naval upgrades/conversions.

[DOCUP]

I said the same thing, now I am trying my hand at a mod and it keeps getting crazier. But I do find it fun, this has become my hobby.

[witpqs]

The single mounts would take up more room than the same number of guns in twin mounts, yes?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

If Saratoga (Lexington) got more 5"/38 Single Open Pedestal Mark 24 mount guns on sponsons instead of the Twin mount Enclosed Base Ring Mark 32. Also, 3rd elevator installed (deck edge as in Essex):

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The single mounts would take up more room than the same number of guns in twin mounts, yes?

Yeah, what are the ramifications of these changes in terms of in-game stats? When would such a change have been applied - this would have been when the 8" guns were removed, yes? Instead of 4x2 5/38 mounts it would've been...what, 6x1 5/38?

[Admiral DadMan]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

If Saratoga (Lexington) got more 5in/38cal Single Open Pedestal Mark 24 mount guns on sponsons instead of the Twin mount Enclosed Base Ring Mark 32. Also, 3rd elevator installed (deck edge as in Essex):

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The single mounts would take up more room than the same number of guns in twin mounts, yes?

Yeah, what are the ramifications of these changes in terms of in-game stats? When would such a change have been applied - this would have been when the 8" guns were removed, yes? Instead of 4x2 5/38 mounts it would've been...what, 6x1 5/38?

Yes, I would imagine that one could put 2 twins in the same space as 3 open singles, giving a 4:3 gun ratio. Weight would be the issue

It would be done in 2 stages (for which I need to do different art, and I goofed the location of the elevator).

First the 5in/38cal.

After the January 11, 1942 torpedo hit on Saratoga, she went back to the Puget Sound Navy Yard in Bremerton, WA where the following was done:
-her funnel structure was lowered by 20 feet,
-the tripod mast on her island was replaced with a pole type mast,
-the 8in/55cal twin mounts were exchanged for 5in/38cal DP twin mounts,
-the 5in/25cal DP single deck edge sponson were exchanged for 5in/38cal DP single on a 3 for 2 basis (due to the 5in/38cal heavier weight),
-the 3rd 5in/25cal on each quarter were replaced by a quad 1.1in (later upgraded to 40mm).
-a blister was installed on the starboard side to help raise the ship's metacentric height, and increase torpedo protection.
*The blister also allowed her to use her full 9700 tons of fuel oil (instead of just 5400 tons), nearly doubling her range
to about 18000 nautical miles. Neither the range nor the armor are accounted for in the game's upgrade.

Adding the blister, etc. only added a month to her yard stay.

So, "what if" instead of mounting those 5in/38cals in twins on the starboard side flight deck, that the already existing fore and aft deck edge sponsons are enlarged to accommodate more 5in/38 singles? The weight is lower on the center of gravity than the deck mounted turrets, and not mounting new turrets on the starboard side relieves more of the inherent list caused by the massive island and funnel. Granted, we're still talking the 3 month (90 day) availability in a level 200 yard to do this.

Here are the weights for comparison:
1.1in/75cal Quad Mount- Mark 2 Mod2: 12,500 lbs.= 6.25 tons/mount
5in/25cal Single Open Pedestal Mount-Mark 27: 23,270 lbs.= 11.6 tons/mount
40 mm/56 Quad Mount- Mark 4: 24,553 lbs.= 12.3 tons/mount
5in/38cal Single Open Pedestal Mount- Mark 24 Mod 0: 31,200 lbs.= 15.6 tons/mount
Single Enclosed Base Ring Mount- Mark 30 Mod 41: 41,400 lbs.= 20.7 tons/mount
Twin Enclosed Base Ring Mount- Mark 32 Mod 0: 105,600 lbs.= 52.8 tons/mount
8in/55cal Twin Mount 374,000lbs.= 187 tons/mount

The goal was to increase firepower with as little weight as possible

So the historical upgrade came to 361.1 tons. The scenario proposed upgrade would come to 274.6 tons. The benefit is that there is still a savings of nearly 90 tons, and there is 136 tons LESS on the starboard side and above the flight deck, hence lower on the center of gravity. Evidence suggests that the reason flight deck mounted twins were used was expediency, in that there were twin 5in/38cal mounts readily available from the Cleveland class CVL conversions.


In the game, Instead of
4x2 5in/38cal Front
4x2 5in/38cal Rear
4x1 5in/38cal Right side
4x1 5in/38cal Left Side
16x4 1.1in Right Side
16x4 1.1in Left Side
4x4 1.1in Center

You get
8x1 5in/38cal Right side
8x1 5in/38cal Left Side
8x4 1.1in Front (Fore of Island)
4x4 1.1in Center
8x4 1.1in Rear (Aft of Funnel)
8x4 1.1in Right Side
8x4 1.1in Left Side

There isn't more AA, just a re-positioning of gun mounts, which so as set up additional incentive for the installation of 4 single 5in/38cal in sponson during the later re-fit/re-build in regards to the deck-edge elevator and further armor blister.


The deck edge elevator is more fantasy than anything else.

From June 1944 to Sept 1944, Saratoga under went a major refit in Puget Sound/Bremerton. Additional armor, light AA, and the replacement/upgrade of her forward elevator were carried out. The forward elevator had been due for replacement since 1938 but wasn't done until Summer of 1944. By that time, the aft elevator had become nearly useless, so in 1945 it was removed and covered over, and it was a big reason why she was only operating 70 planes at that time.

There are enough Essex class in action that Saratoga (and/or Lexington) could be spared for this work. Being that the Lexington class had a closed hanger, an opening in the side of the upper hull would be necessary. I'd "guesstimate" 2 1/2 months (75 days) in a level 200 shipyard to do the work.

In game, the elevator is nothing more than aesthetics, so to encourage/justify the length of time in the yard, an additional single 5in/38cal can be added on each corner sponson. The weight would have to come off from somewhere (in addition to removing the aft elevator), and that would be 2 of the quad 40mm mounts:

So, you upgrade from
8x1 5in/38cal Right side
8x1 5in/38cal Left Side
36x4 40mm Right Side
36x4 40mm Left Side

To
10x1 5in/38cal Right side
10x1 5in/38cal Left Side
32x4 40mm Right Side
32x4 40mm Left Side

[Admiral DadMan]

So you get this progression:

1941 Removal of 8in/55cal replaced with 1.1in
1942 Major Re-fit/re-build 5in/25cal replaced with 5in/38cal, etc.
1942 upgrade 1.1in to 40mm and radar
1943 40mm additions
1944 Install deck-edge elevator, armor, AA

Artwork to follow.

[RyanCrierie]

Do one with the funnel cut down!

This was a serious refit proposal, I've read the letters and indorsements dated very early December 1941 (before Pearl Harbor) about how cutting down the funnel will save such and such tons of topweight, which could be used on other things during a yard refit.

[Admiral DadMan]

ORIGINAL: RyanCrierie

Do one with the funnel cut down!

This was a serious refit proposal, I've read the letters and indorsements dated very early December 1941 (before Pearl Harbor) about how cutting down the funnel will save such and such tons of topweight, which could be used on other things during a yard refit.

The ship above is one with the funnel lowered. Even with lowering it, the funnel was still massive.

[Admiral DadMan]

Eh.

[Korvar]

I matched the color scheme for you:

[Admiral DadMan]

Nice. Then, I did this:

[Kitakami]

Beautiful work!

[Admiral DadMan]

Thank you. Not sure if I like this one better though:

[Korvar]

Here's the alternate:




Btw, nice work!

[Admiral DadMan]

Thanks, so is yours.



Interesting what the mind will come up with at 2am: Lexington with and axial deck as a re-fit.

Hey, either go big, or go home, right?