Close enough to the ill fated Andrea Doria to call it a match! I think Stockholm was her nemesis.ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
8/15/44
Thanks for contributing a lot of information about light industry and supply. I've learned a lot.
Thanks for participating in the quarterfinals of the Notable Women Singers event. I enjoyed the comments and insights. It was more fun than "Ginger or Mary Ann?"
I noted Makee Learn's suggestion for an index of some kind. Good idea, though I don't know if I have the patience to try it. This dadgum AAR is now at 361 pages.
But I did think of Makee Learn (and a certain proclivity of his, involving Google images) when I saw this ship on the list of new arrivals. For those of us of a certain age, the name will remind us of something noteworthy.
The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
- Canoerebel
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
There you go.
To NYGiants: I haven't read a book on naval matters in the Civil War, so I'm of no help there.
To NYGiants: I haven't read a book on naval matters in the Civil War, so I'm of no help there.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
- MakeeLearn
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
The luxury liner Stockholm after meeting Andrea Doria.
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- MakeeLearn
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- MakeeLearn
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
"when I feel like I'm winnin and I'm losin again" Playing WitPAE ????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7NMvpZ3PM0
The girl in the vid has a tattoo of Paratrooper Wings, can you spot them?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7NMvpZ3PM0
The girl in the vid has a tattoo of Paratrooper Wings, can you spot them?
- MakeeLearn
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
I noted Makee Learn's suggestion for an index of some kind. Good idea, though I don't know if I have the patience to try it. This dadgum AAR is now at 361 pages.
Even if you don't do the page numbers it would be good to have a outline of the events of the war.
- uncivil_servant
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
Something to ponder (*and this might be a total crap idea). You have a line of forces in China near his Army front. Even units, and especially units, that have older version of Chinese forces can all be moved up to occupy hexes with his forces. You don't have to attack along a wide front but it will cause panic. There where is he going to attack effect. If your forces dig in a bit before any attacks you will be still some what "defending" and can help mitigate loses, which you can easily replace.
He might even panic and abandon some areas along the lines giving you cities with valuable storage in them. Also, moving along a wide front gives you the opportunity to attack when and where you want, with him unable to divert forces along the line to weaker places as you have moved against his front along a very wide front. (Think Soviet forces building up against Axis lines around Stalingrad. Not a 1 to 1 analogy I know.). You can focus your better forces on Cities, or path to cities, which produce supplies.
Even if you don't attack at all, it forces him to not commit any reserve forces exclusively against your southern Allied Beachhead. Pins some of them in place like the Germans at Calais. It could also draw his bombers out to attack your land forces who he think will attack "imminently" along the front.
Bombers bombing throw away Chinese land forces are bombers not going after more valuable units you have.
Just my 2c.
He might even panic and abandon some areas along the lines giving you cities with valuable storage in them. Also, moving along a wide front gives you the opportunity to attack when and where you want, with him unable to divert forces along the line to weaker places as you have moved against his front along a very wide front. (Think Soviet forces building up against Axis lines around Stalingrad. Not a 1 to 1 analogy I know.). You can focus your better forces on Cities, or path to cities, which produce supplies.
Even if you don't attack at all, it forces him to not commit any reserve forces exclusively against your southern Allied Beachhead. Pins some of them in place like the Germans at Calais. It could also draw his bombers out to attack your land forces who he think will attack "imminently" along the front.
Bombers bombing throw away Chinese land forces are bombers not going after more valuable units you have.
Just my 2c.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
I don't believe John is prone to "panic." But, I do agree that a robust forward movement by the Chinese MLR might make John reconsider a more forceful response to CR's China invasion.
Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...
- MakeeLearn
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
ORIGINAL: ny59giants
Headed for CR's wheelhouse now.....
"Iron Dawn...The Monitor, The Merrimack and the Civil War Sea Battle that Changed History" by Richard Snow
I'm now about 2/3 in and it is March 8, 1862 in Hampton Roads. This is my first book on these two ships exclusively. I would recommended it as its been a good balance of supposed first hand accounts of those involved in development of both sides. Interesting to hear some guns are by shell weight (32-pounder) or gun barrel (8 inch).
Any other good books on just the naval side of Civil War??
"Narrative of a Blockade Runner" by John Wilkinson
It's part of the "Collector's Library of the Civil War" but can also be found separate.
Anything on the CSS ALABAMA
"Wolf of the Deep: Raphael Semmes and the Notorious Confederate Raider CSS Alabama" by Stephen Fox
- Bullwinkle58
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
ORIGINAL: Lovejoy
A lot of times, the old name for the CSS Virginia (Merrimack) gets used when referring to it. I think this is because most of the official records of the U.S Navy Department (I don't know if the South's Navy Department records survived the war) refer to it as the "Merrimack" as the US Navy didn't really care what the Southerners wanted to call it. To be honest, I'm not even sure if they knew what it had been renamed. Likely as not, the author decided to stick to using the name that the U.S Navy used when referring to it simply for the ease of fitting his primary research into place. A lot of the books I've read have referenced the CSS Virginia as the "Merrimack".
Not to get too far into the legal niceties of 19th Century international law, but as the U.S refused to recognize the South as a independent nation, official recognition of its warships might have constituted recognition, and as such, the US Navy Department may have felt compelled to do as much as they could to avoid according Southern warships the distinction as warships of a nation-state, in this case by refusing to recognize the right of the South to renamed a ship lawfully belonging to the US Navy.
Of course, I could be reading way too much into it! Sorry for the thread hijack, Civil War Naval History is a passion of mine.
Having gone to Virginia public schools in an era where answering "the Civil War" on a history test was marked wrong, and having said public school being a few miles from Hampton Roads where the battle took place, we were steeped in this issue. The retreating USN burned USS Merrimack to the waterline (the dock was flooded to put out the fire by the shipyard-capturing Confederates), and an argument can be made that the ship was abandoned as salvage at that point. But to my knowledge she was never struck from the list either. To your point, and one that drives many Virginians mad, especially recently in the "monument crisis", the Confederacy was never recognized as a nation state by the USA, so having national ships in commission was a non-sequitur. To the victors she always was a United States ship under rebel control, with a lot of unauthorized hoo-haw hung on her main deck.
Me? I always figured it was just newspaper editors' love of alliteration in headlines.
The Moose
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
The retreating USN burned USS Merrimack to the waterline (the dock was flooded to put out the fire by the shipyard-capturing Confederates), and an argument can be made that the ship was abandoned as salvage at that point.
Me? I always figured it was just newspaper editors' love of alliteration in headlines.
And possession be 9/10 of the law, particularly when you arm said possession with cannon!
- uncivil_servant
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
Not to be contrarian to keeping the name Merrimack was more of an insult than anything regarding recognizing the Confederacy. In dispatches and letters the Army of Northern Virginia is referred to as such. Never the Militia of the State of Virginia. Richmond was referred to as the capital of the Confederacy, even though it was not a recognized nation. Members of the Confederate Army were recognized by rank, NOT the previous rank issued to them by the US Government. (They referred to Lee as General Lee, not Colonel Lee). Not calling the Virginia the Virginia but instead the name of the hull the Virginia was built from was a backhanded insult from the US Navy.ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Having gone to Virginia public schools in an era where answering "the Civil War" on a history test was marked wrong, and having said public school being a few miles from Hampton Roads where the battle took place, we were steeped in this issue. The retreating USN burned USS Merrimack to the waterline (the dock was flooded to put out the fire by the shipyard-capturing Confederates), and an argument can be made that the ship was abandoned as salvage at that point. But to my knowledge she was never struck from the list either. To your point, and one that drives many Virginians mad, especially recently in the "monument crisis", the Confederacy was never recognized as a nation state by the USA, so having national ships in commission was a non-sequitur. To the victors she always was a United States ship under rebel control, with a lot of unauthorized hoo-haw hung on her main deck.
Me? I always figured it was just newspaper editors' love of alliteration in headlines.
Further: Ships we captured from the Barbary States (a government we recognized) were renamed after being captured in the conflict and were never referred to as their former names but as their USS Designation.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
- Bullwinkle58
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
ORIGINAL: Lovejoy
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
The retreating USN burned USS Merrimack to the waterline (the dock was flooded to put out the fire by the shipyard-capturing Confederates), and an argument can be made that the ship was abandoned as salvage at that point.
Me? I always figured it was just newspaper editors' love of alliteration in headlines.
And possession be 9/10 of the law, particularly when you arm said possession with cannon!
I think the quote is "possession is nine points of the law", but the meaning of that is only known to legal historians of the 18thC(?).
The Moose
- Bullwinkle58
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
ORIGINAL: uncivil_servant
Not to be contrarian to keeping the name Merrimack was more of an insult than anything regarding recognizing the Confederacy. In dispatches and letters the Army of Northern Virginia is referred to as such. Never the Militia of the State of Virginia. Richmond was referred to as the capital of the Confederacy, even though it was not a recognized nation. Members of the Confederate Army were recognized by rank, NOT the previous rank issued to them by the US Government. (They referred to Lee as General Lee, not Colonel Lee).ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Having gone to Virginia public schools in an era where answering "the Civil War" on a history test was marked wrong, and having said public school being a few miles from Hampton Roads where the battle took place, we were steeped in this issue. The retreating USN burned USS Merrimack to the waterline (the dock was flooded to put out the fire by the shipyard-capturing Confederates), and an argument can be made that the ship was abandoned as salvage at that point. But to my knowledge she was never struck from the list either. To your point, and one that drives many Virginians mad, especially recently in the "monument crisis", the Confederacy was never recognized as a nation state by the USA, so having national ships in commission was a non-sequitur. To the victors she always was a United States ship under rebel control, with a lot of unauthorized hoo-haw hung on her main deck.
Me? I always figured it was just newspaper editors' love of alliteration in headlines.
True. But to me more a matter of convenience. Former Confederate officials were seen as having forfeited their citizenship through treason, and only regained it after the war by mandated oaths, and pardons.
I believe the USN referred to Confederate vessels purpose built as "CSS" ships. What else to call them? I suppose. Today they'd be "alleged CSS ships."
Not calling the Virginia the Virginia but instead the name of the hull the Virginia was built from was a backhanded insult from the US Navy.
Further: Ships we captured from the Barbary States (a government we recognized) were renamed after being captured in the conflict and were never referred to as their former names but as their USS Designation.
This had been accepted practice in all navies for centuries. The RN and the French had a mutual lending library of ships all through the Napoleonic period, for example. Had the ironclad survived and been taken by the USN she would have been USS Merrimack in all respects once more. I doubt the ironcladding would have been removed, however.
The Moose
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
ny59giants - second our friend 'MakeeLearn' suggestion of "Wolf of the Deep".
Also, "Memoirs of Service Afloat", by Semmes:
https://archive.org/details/serviceafloatwar00semmrich
Another first-person book I enjoyed: "Lamson of the Gettysburg", by Lamson, edited by McCullough. It has a detailed view of USN brownwater naval action during the Civil War.
Also, "Memoirs of Service Afloat", by Semmes:
https://archive.org/details/serviceafloatwar00semmrich
Another first-person book I enjoyed: "Lamson of the Gettysburg", by Lamson, edited by McCullough. It has a detailed view of USN brownwater naval action during the Civil War.
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
Y’all are missing the point… If you speak the phrase “Monitor Vs. Merrimac”.. it flows much better and far more poetically than “Monitor vs. Virginia”. To me, it will always be the Monitor vs. the Merrimac.
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
Scattershooting:
Merrimack: The Virginia had about a 3-month career before she returned whence she came, underwater. I doubt that the US was aware of/cared about the name change. Having said that, the Bullwinkle unified alliteration theory is correct. Editors do love them for headlines.
Notable Women Singers: Linda Ronstadt uber alles.
Andrea Doria: Odd, the first thing I thought about when I saw name was the Seinfeld episode not the ship.
Lincoln and his Admirals: Great book.
Merrimack: The Virginia had about a 3-month career before she returned whence she came, underwater. I doubt that the US was aware of/cared about the name change. Having said that, the Bullwinkle unified alliteration theory is correct. Editors do love them for headlines.
Notable Women Singers: Linda Ronstadt uber alles.
Andrea Doria: Odd, the first thing I thought about when I saw name was the Seinfeld episode not the ship.
Lincoln and his Admirals: Great book.
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
The Andrea Doria, and the Edmund Fitzgerald. Those two shouldn't be linked in my brain, but I don't tell the synapses what to do.
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
As above, if supply goes to zero you've got bigger problems. I've never seen a base's supply sucked to zero by field LCUs. Not even Chungking in 1942. Maybe the reason is so many bases can contribute, and there aren't any geographies, or many, where there's only one base to draw from. If my field LCUs were pulling so much out that I couldn't defend my main operating base(s), I'd move some LCUs farther away and starve them before I'd lose a major VP base. In that case combat would be so intense that LI production would be #10 on a list of the top five problems to worry about.
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My opponent isolated Chunking instead of capturing it and as I have lost units the base had become overstacked by about 100,000 men. The result was not pretty. It's gamey I know but I don't mind much. Besides, while he was not paying attention I ran a ghost unit in from the north and was able to do a massive breakout. Talk about fun.
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Linda Ronstadt is also a songwriter, and helped the Eagles get their start by letting them record "Desperado". I like the clarity of her voice over the smoky, husky tones of Stevie Nix.ORIGINAL: crsutton
Emmylou vs Ronstadt is close but goes to Emmylou because she is a songwriter as well as a great singer.
Joan over Stevie for the same reason, and because in the early 1970s I went to a concert of her's at Cole Field House at the University of Maryland. At the time she refused to allow the promoters to charge more than $2.50 for a ticket. God bless her.
Emmylou vs Joan is no contest though. I have had a crush on Emmylou ever since I discovered her and Graham Parsons while listening to progressive radio in 1973 during the summer break from Maryland when I worked for the Praise the Lord Decorating Company. That in itself is another tale for another day. [;)]
Glen Frey and Don Henley wrote Desperado. As far as I know Linda has two recorded songs where she shares co-writing credits. However, the vast bulk of her great works are covers of other artist's songs. I still adore her though.
Emmylou Harris did not write much until later in her life. "Red Dirt Girl" features mostly her own work and established her reputation as a song writer. One of my favorite albums is "Trio" featuring those two and Dolly Parton performing together.
Here is a great video of Linda and Johnny Cash singing "I never will Mary" on his variety show. Cash really worked had to have a great diversity of musicians on the show. And the performances are well worth watching even today. The back story on this performance is that June Carter noticed at rehearsal that Linda was not wearing panties. (Apparently she preferred going commando) June hit the roof and Linda had to make the necessary adjustments before she could perform on the show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVvNXfzR6dw
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg