"Quiet China" alternative?

[Rusty1961]

I'm starting another game as the allies, now in March of 42, and my opponent has done essentially nothing in China other than make some demonstration attacks.

What do most Japanese players do instead of China? India?

[Jorge_Stanbury]

stockpile oil [;)]

[Rusty1961]

And what do most ALlied players do if the Japanese leave China alone?
I've never faced a QC strategy.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I am playing a QC campaign in my Japanese game... basically it means that other than some token invasions, we will keep the map "as is" for the rest of the game

What you can do is simply conserve supply as much as you can, until the time, much later on, when you can get a big port in or near China.. then you dump millions of supply to "grow" those Chinese gigantic corps LCUs and kick the Japanese out

To conserve supply: do not build, do not bomb, avoid offensives, avoid moving, do not overstack, etc

[belfry]

From a Japanese point of view I at least try and take Changsha plus the cities directly to the west. Of course Sian has oil. I try to secure the rail net and clear out all below that line. HK is then free to accept oil/fuel/resources which can be picked up at Shanghai/Fusan/Keijo. Not doing anything in China will cost you in the long run as allied supplies fill out those hordes/corps and they come back at you in later life....with air support.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury
... What you can do is simply conserve supply as much as you can, until the time, much later on, when you can get a big port in or near China.. then you dump millions of supply to "grow" those Chinese gigantic corps LCUs and kick the Japanese out ...

This is why most IJ players will attempt to take CHI out of the game ... in '45 the CHI units are as fearsome as the SOV ... one of the goals for IJ is to keep a 17 hex arc around the HI secure. If CHI is in play, in force in '44, I've not figured out how to do that. It is very difficult to keep the burma road closed through '43. Once open, it means that any surviving CHI unit will be in supply and growing rapidly. If CHI still holds Chungking, it means ALL CHI units are back in play ... roughly 40% of the CHI units can 'grow' to 800 AV each. Simply put, they are monsters. Granted they take huge losses in combat, but they also inflict huge losses on IJ unarmored units and they reconstitute easily in a short time.

So, by taking out the CHI, IJ now has a more viable survival strategy on the mainland in '45. Far from perfect as the SOV threat with its ludicrous number of armored units is still tough to stop, but at least it is no longer a 2 - axis threat ... and that does matter a great deal.

[GetAssista]

If Japan is leaving you alone in China, it means that your supply drain is actually surplus. Get your troops into defensive positions in x3 terrain, build up Changsha and Sian airfield to 5+, fly in couple US 4E squadrons and remind him of your existence by making passes on ports or strat bombing his industry It's great if he has to CAP everything deep, less fighters for the front this way and less optimized training. Not to mention if he let you keep Wenchow - you can hit and run Home Islands from there

As for where Japan would go. His China/Makchukuo LCUs are restricted, so the only other employment for them is early rush on Soviets. It is perfectly viable strategy despite massive Soviet army numbers. Look for airfield buildup on the borders. Or maybe your opponent just does not like land combat. There is a reason why "quiet China" AI scenario is there in the game from the start

[PaxMondo]

I've never tried this. I do know it would be hard to execute against the AI as even movement in MAN will wake up the CHI AI .... in a PBEM, the first challenge would be the 'agreement' of your 'Quiet China'. It curtails your avenues of attack. Not only direction but the units that can be used. For me, taking on the SOV early without using units from China would be a real challenge. I would have to deplete a lot of other areas and that would be tough to do ... just thinking about it ... having tried it, and as an AI player it wouldn't work in any case so no reason for me to pursue this avenue .... if you try it, write an AAR ... be interesting.

[GetAssista]

Pax, AI AARs focused on land combat are dull =)
AI in this game is programmed to attack over overwhelming odds. So it is really easy to gut his hordes in a well fortified hex, not to mention surround and starve it. I see no problems with subduing Soviet AI if that is what you asked.

As for PBEM, there are several AARs featuring early Soviet activation although most of them are with conquered or greatly reduced China. There was one in the early days of WITPAE, where Japan went north even earlier. These were pretty competitive games AFAIR with a lot of trouble to soviets, with elimination of Vlad pocket and such, mainly thanks to Japan's air superiority.
Certainly there should be a period of preparation. Japan cannot go north right from the start. Defensive positions need to be dug to contain and then starve Vladivostok army, Aleuteans need to be seized and fortified to prevent lend-lease, China preimeter needs to be fortified too. If I did PBEM I would not risk it, it is too novel for my experience, and I doubt it is what's happening in Rusty1961's game too. Just hypothesizing

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

I'm starting another game as the allies, now in March of 42, and my opponent has done essentially nothing in China other than make some demonstration attacks.

What do most Japanese players do instead of China? India?

"Quiet China" is how the Japanese AI will approach the Chinese theater of operations, but has no bearing on how a human PBEM partner need approach China.

Personally, China is a sink of victory points for the Japanese-particularly early game. There are a large number of units in the North-Central plains that should be cut off and destroyed before they fall back into good defensible territory. If the Allied opponent doesn't want to be active in China, the Japanese player should avail himself of these units and liquidate them in situ for victory points. Do this early and often enough and Chungking itself-and the whole Chinese theater-can be threatened by 1943.

ETA: As a Japanese player, I'd no sooner agree to a quiet China than the Allies would ever agree to a 'quiet Burma' throughout the war. In the game, it represents an opportunity to avail yourself of VPs and can serve a useful conquest towards autovictory or buttressing your points for the inevitable defensive aspect of the game in late war.

Kind of like Burma for many Allied players-it's an area to fight with the opponent in a limited ground game and put pressure on them earlier than a mid-Pacific campaign can be staged.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Pax, AI AARs focused on land combat are dull =)
AI in this game is programmed to attack over overwhelming odds. So it is really easy to gut his hordes in a well fortified hex, not to mention surround and starve it. I see no problems with subduing Soviet AI if that is what you asked.

As for PBEM, there are several AARs featuring early Soviet activation although most of them are with conquered or greatly reduced China. There was one in the early days of WITPAE, where Japan went north even earlier. These were pretty competitive games AFAIR with a lot of trouble to soviets, with elimination of Vlad pocket and such, mainly thanks to Japan's air superiority.
Certainly there should be a period of preparation. Japan cannot go north right from the start. Defensive positions need to be dug to contain and then starve Vladivostok army, Aleuteans need to be seized and fortified to prevent lend-lease, China preimeter needs to be fortified too. If I did PBEM I would not risk it, it is too novel for my experience, and I doubt it is what's happening in Rusty1961's game too. Just hypothesizing

Sorry I wasn't clear. OP is PBEM. I have never read an AAR where there was a 'quiet china' HR in place AND the IJ went after the SOV early. I know in an AI game, this can't be done, the AI would 'wake up'. In a PBEM game, it is theoretically possible. However, I think it would be very difficult if you cannot use the units tied down in a 'quiet china' HR.

[DanSez]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Pax, AI AARs focused on land combat are dull =)

Well....
while I agree with your basic premise, a creative writer can make a receipe sound exciting while most of use just struggle along reporting events and asking advice.

One of the most entertaining AARs is predominately about a bunch of conflicted characters trying to keep boilers working and planes flying on one ship. A good writer can find a story in the strangest of places.
We also are graced with some comic AAR writers who could make the mess of China read like a Keystone Cops/Charlie Chaplin slapstick battle.

Maybe someday there will be 'the Little Mixed Bgd. Who Could'
A tough writing assignment? Yes, but maybe someone will take the challenge.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Pax, AI AARs focused on land combat are dull =)
AI in this game is programmed to attack over overwhelming odds. So it is really easy to gut his hordes in a well fortified hex, not to mention surround and starve it. I see no problems with subduing Soviet AI if that is what you asked.

As for PBEM, there are several AARs featuring early Soviet activation although most of them are with conquered or greatly reduced China. There was one in the early days of WITPAE, where Japan went north even earlier. These were pretty competitive games AFAIR with a lot of trouble to soviets, with elimination of Vlad pocket and such, mainly thanks to Japan's air superiority.
Certainly there should be a period of preparation. Japan cannot go north right from the start. Defensive positions need to be dug to contain and then starve Vladivostok army, Aleuteans need to be seized and fortified to prevent lend-lease, China preimeter needs to be fortified too. If I did PBEM I would not risk it, it is too novel for my experience, and I doubt it is what's happening in Rusty1961's game too. Just hypothesizing

The opposite is true as well. A player controlled SU versus an AI controlled Japan results in the complete loss of Manchuria and Korea within a year.
The AI simply can't manage a land combat strategy.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Sorry I wasn't clear. OP is PBEM. I have never read an AAR where there was a 'quiet china' HR in place AND the IJ went after the SOV early. I know in an AI game, this can't be done, the AI would 'wake up'. In a PBEM game, it is theoretically possible. However, I think it would be very difficult if you cannot use the units tied down in a 'quiet china' HR.

Ah, now I see. Well, do we have any examples of PBEMs with any sort of quiet China agreement coined out at all? The only HR I see now and then is a strat bombing restriction. I've seen AARs with Japan passive, but that was a choice not a HR. As esteemed Poultry guy outlined it is not in Japan's interest at all to be timid in China at start.

Anyway, given OP is Allied, has no China HR of any sort and wonders what might be going on on Japan's side (my guess is lazy Japan), discussing the intricacies of Japan engaging Soviets is borderline offtopic ) Though it is interesting, yes

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Sorry I wasn't clear. OP is PBEM. I have never read an AAR where there was a 'quiet china' HR in place AND the IJ went after the SOV early. I know in an AI game, this can't be done, the AI would 'wake up'. In a PBEM game, it is theoretically possible. However, I think it would be very difficult if you cannot use the units tied down in a 'quiet china' HR.

Ah, now I see. Well, do we have any examples of PBEMs with any sort of quiet China agreement coined out at all? The only HR I see now and then is a strat bombing restriction. I've seen AARs with Japan passive, but that was a choice not a HR. As esteemed Poultry guy outlined it is not in Japan's interest at all to be timid in China at start.

Anyway, given OP is Allied, has no China HR of any sort and wonders what might be going on on Japan's side (my guess is lazy Japan), discussing the intricacies of Japan engaging Soviets is borderline offtopic ) Though it is interesting, yes

Some players just don't 'get into' the land combat engine in this game.
Look at how little John III has done against China in his game against Canoerebel as an example.
Personally I really enjoy the nuances of the ground combat engine and thoroughly enjoy clearing the Japanese AI out of China in 1942.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Personally I really enjoy the nuances of the ground combat engine

Me too.

and thoroughly enjoy clearing the Chinese AI out of China in 1942.

I fixed that for you. [;)]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Pax, AI AARs focused on land combat are dull =)
AI in this game is programmed to attack over overwhelming odds. So it is really easy to gut his hordes in a well fortified hex, not to mention surround and starve it. I see no problems with subduing Soviet AI if that is what you asked.

As for PBEM, there are several AARs featuring early Soviet activation although most of them are with conquered or greatly reduced China. There was one in the early days of WITPAE, where Japan went north even earlier. These were pretty competitive games AFAIR with a lot of trouble to soviets, with elimination of Vlad pocket and such, mainly thanks to Japan's air superiority.
Certainly there should be a period of preparation. Japan cannot go north right from the start. Defensive positions need to be dug to contain and then starve Vladivostok army, Aleuteans need to be seized and fortified to prevent lend-lease, China preimeter needs to be fortified too. If I did PBEM I would not risk it, it is too novel for my experience, and I doubt it is what's happening in Rusty1961's game too. Just hypothesizing

Sorry I wasn't clear. OP is PBEM. I have never read an AAR where there was a 'quiet china' HR in place AND the IJ went after the SOV early. I know in an AI game, this can't be done, the AI would 'wake up'. In a PBEM game, it is theoretically possible. However, I think it would be very difficult if you cannot use the units tied down in a 'quiet china' HR.

Way back when, Castor Troy (IIRC) trumpeted that he had taken all of the Soviet Union easily, because the Russian AF was so poorly trained and equipped he could eliminate it and bomb at will. I am not sure if the changes made to the game since then have made this more difficult or not.
I don't recall if CT was playing the AI or PBEM. I have used the Russians against the AI (I made the AI fly a recon flight over a Russian base to trigger it), and the Russian armour and artillery is awesome!

[PaxMondo]

Yeah, there is (was?) an AAR going (well sorta, I think it is now page 2 or 3 between two relative newbie's with a quiet china HR ... but i don't think the IJ player had any intent of an early SOV strike ... think they were just figuring out the naval side of htings ...

[rustysi]

I mean I could be wrong, but the more I play the more a I realize how important taking most of China, if not all is to Japan. She has a huge amount of resources that the Japanese need. I don't see how you could keep it 'quiet'. Let alone what will eventually happen if you ignore the place. To have the Chinese 'wake up' when they do in the game is a time that Japan will most likely have her plate full just trying to fend off all other pressures on the empire.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I mean I could be wrong, but the more I play the more a I realize how important taking most of China, if not all is to Japan. She has a huge amount of resources that the Japanese need. I don't see how you could keep it 'quiet'. Let alone what will eventually happen if you ignore the place. To have the Chinese 'wake up' when they do in the game is a time that Japan will most likely have her plate full just trying to fend off all other pressures on the empire.

+1