Possible fort construction bug

[EwaldvonKleist]

As a consequence of the fort construction discussion I ran some tests and according to them, sappers do not help units digging. Some more details.
I set up a test scenario by using the GC 1941. 4 units, empty space without cities. All same morale/TOE exp and construction value (10) as they were all the fresh Moscow PM divisions.
I put them all in a line. Moved an army close and attached two of the 4 divisions to the army (the other two remained under STAVKA control, STAVKA far far away).
Then, I assigned two sapper regiments to the army, one of them with 20 construction value and expected a difference.
However, over 3 turns, the difference between the units with access to sappers (the ones under army control) and the lonely ones is not existent. Really 0-2% difference only.
If you would like to see the saves please write me an E-Mail (you have my adress morvael, we recently discussed the possible isolated panzers airdrop exploit.
Regards, I hope I wasn't just silly

[Denniss]

Why should Sappers/Pioneers help in building constructions? They are not construction engineers but offensive combat engineers with focus on destruction.

[EwaldvonKleist]

According to the changelog, from 1.08.00:
38. Reworked how HQs and their support units assist in construction of forts. Only engineer
and construction support units will be now allowed to help.

In the commanders report, sappers are listed as engineers, so I suppose they should help?
They also have a high construction value multiplier (high construction value in comparison to size) and I thought its because they help building as well?

[Stelteck]

Sappers works (construction units works too) to increase fortification building if attached to a defensive zone, a german division or a soviet corps. (Tested).
No idea when attached to HQ.

Thanks for the test it is very interesting.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Ok I tested the same with RR construction units as well the same way I did with sappers. They don't help in any way.
Last candidate are construction bataillions but to be honest I am too lazy to wait until they have enought experience so they have more than 0 construction value.
Please look into this, maybe a bug was introduced when the support unit construction assistance was reworked for 1.08.00? Maybe I will test teh same for the German side and nobody can explain why Pioneers should not help constructing fortifications as they were multi role units AFAIK.
Though sappers might be no real construction units, I think they should still help fort construction.
@Stelteck: Ok good to know that I will be later able to make at least some use of my sappers

[Stelteck]

Maybe they work only if there is a fortification construction in the Hex where the HQ is (range zero)?

[EwaldvonKleist]

No time until next monday/tuesday to test this as well unfortunately But if this should be the case the range should be extended to the standard 5 hexagon support range.
We will have to wait for a definitive answer from morvael/dennis.

[morvael]

I remember I tested this and it worked. Must repeat my tests then.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Ok thanks
It is possible that I messed up something but I tried to eliminate all possible errors.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Morvael, did you test this/were you able to repeat my results?
By all means no stress just asking...
Regards

[EwaldvonKleist]

To avoid spamming another thread I will ask it here: Is there any rule which limits fort construction to the hexagon east of pavlovo and the shlisselburg hexagon to 110%?
What am I missing?

[Stelteck]

Without fortified zone, if you are too far from the ennemy, you are limited to fortification level 1 + 10%.
Near ennemy, the limit is 2.
frontline to the ennemy, it is 3.

With a fortified zone nearby, you can reach 2 without ennemy. (And 3 in the hex of the fortified zone).
In port with fortified zone, you can reach 4.

[EwaldvonKleist]

You can build to level 2 + 10% wherever you want (except at the 2 hexagons I mentioned above), I tested this. I think its WAD as I see no reason to block lvl 2 forts in the rear area.
But thanks for the comment. Looks like another fort construction bug (still waiting for confirmation regarding the first one).

[Stelteck]

I have this in the rules but i did not tested it seriously, so you may be right :

V1.08.00
Changed fort construction rules.
Fort level 5 can be built only in cities with large port containing a fort unit.
Fort level 4 can be built only in big cities (city, light urban or heavy urban terrain) or towns with port
containing a fort unit.
Fort level 3 can be built only in big cities, towns with port, in hexes with a fort unit or adjacent to an
enemy.
Fort level 2 can be built only next to a fort unit, in coastal zones or up to 3 hexes from a supplied enemy
unit.
Fort level 1 can be built only up to 20 hexes from a supplied enemy unit.
In swamp terrain the fort cannot be larger than 2.

[morvael]

I can confirm the bug - whether a SU was used up or fresh was not checked correctly, thus there was no fort building support from SUs attached to HQs.
I'm only afraid that fixing this bug will move us back to trench war era.

[EwaldvonKleist]

@Stelteck: I looked into the changelog as well, but ingame reality contradicts the written rules (I prefer the ingame rules to be honest). There is an easy explanation for this: Stalin always made clear that there are allot of enemys of the people of the Soviet union who hide in towns and factories to do sabotage. As they are widespread over the country, every hexagon is "three hexagons away from an enemy unit" and there can build up to lvl 2.

@morvael: [&o][&o][&o]
As already said I can't comment on the trench warfare, the modifications of the sapper regiments thing will change balance anyway.

[morvael]

Some extra conditions:
Security units may not build over 2 + 10%
Isolated units may not build over 1 + 10%

[MarauderPL]

Hello, regarding this fort construction issue, the latest changes made the sappers less of a fighting unit (did they lose their flamethrower? The exact change seems vague). At the same time there is this issue - they do not construct forts as intended. The question remains, what tasks do they perform now? (This is not meant to be a rant, just honest inquiry)

[EwaldvonKleist]

At the moment their value seems to be nearly zero until the construction bug will be fixed. If I understood things right sappers were only nerfed a bit and still join fights.
As already wrote in the 1.11.00 thread I think having the possibility to build fort construction units which speed up digging in 1941/42 which convert to pioneer-construction units in 1943 is a solution.
Its quite depressing to realize that you have basically wasted 200 APs and allot of men/arms points for very low effect because of this bug. The developers aren't to blame however as the game is so enormously complex that some bugs can't be avoided.

Were the changes to sapper TOEs made to ongoing games started in earlier versions as well?

[MarauderPL]

I have only a game carrying on from 1.10 (I upgraded to 1.11, unsure if the changes were actually applied, or do i need to start a new game). From what I've seen, the sapper squad has a flamer, while a sapper 41 squad has not. I don't know if it was like that in previous versions.

A supplement question is: do the construction battalions erect forts? Or are they bugged as well? I know they have a meager construction value, but better have something than nothing.

From the design/gameplay point of view, wouldn't it be better to have sappers as the fighting units, while construction units as the, well, construction units? That way we have a meaningful choice, instead of one unit does everything while the other does nothing.