Brit/Indian Arm TO&E Q

[DOCUP]

I'm looking for the TO&E for Brit/Indian armoured/tank bde's from 40-45. I have found several websites that list the smaller units but not the type of tanks number of tanks and other equipment they were issued during certain time frames.

thanks guys

[JeffroK]

Early answer, I dont think there is a common TO&E. There may be a WE (War Establishment) for an Armoured Bde HQ.

The Armoured Regiments could be armed with M3/5 Stuarts, M3 Grants or M4 Shermans ans at time might have a mix (All would have had a M3/5 Stuart Sqn though)

There was also a Tank Brigade equipped with Valentine Infantry Tanks.

[Ian R]

The internet is often wrong. But you could do worse than looking HERE. These guy's research is fairly thorough.

I'm not sure what you are asking - the early, proposed, Indian armoured division brigades followed the UK pattern TOE, but never saw action. The Indian Army Tank Brigades, were not, ultimately, equipped like a UK/Canadian "army tank" brigade - i.e. with heavy tanks like valentines. Lots of Valentines were produced, they were used in combat including in place of cruiser tanks, and as such were likely training vehicles for the Indian units later on. The three Indian brigades generally had three "cruiser" regiments - in this instance US sourced M3 or later M4 mediums, and one of M3 lights, plus a motor infantry brigade that fought dismounted. No organic artillery or AAA, but thing like SPA and engineers could be attached.

I'd suggest you look up the official, and detailed, histories of the Imphal, Kohima, and Arakan battles in 1944 to see exactly what they had. I think its this volume: War Against Japan, Volume 3: The Decisive Battles, Kirby, S. Woodburn et al. London: HMSO, 1961 Unlike many other countries' official histories, this doesn't appear to be on line yet, so you might have to get it the old fashioned way.

[JeffroK]

I was heading to the same place as Ian, the shortcut was on my old PC.

Ian has his Brigades & Regiments mixed up, a Motor Infantry Battalion from the Bombay Grenadiers was part of each Armoured Brigade.

50 Indian Tank Brigade was armed with Valentines and fought in the 1st Arakan campaign (at least 146 RAC), by 1945 it was in action again but reequipped with Shermans in the 19th Lancers, Lees in 146 Rgt RAC and Stuarts in 45 Cavalry Rgt.

[Ian R]

Yes. An Indian armoured brigade has a battalion from the Bombay Grenadiers who are motorised, i.e. they fight on foot.

R Mark Davies, who researched the OOBs at that link, discusses them at this forum

[DOCUP]

Thanks guys. I have looked at the fire and fury page. I like that, the other site did give me some info. I am asking because, I was looking at the armored units at the start of the game(Dec 7). Not one tank in the Brit/Indian armored/tank units. I find this odd. I wouldn't expect fully flushed out units but at least a few tanks. I also looked at the game TO&E, some of them don't have tanks in them or at least until 43. With some of the info I have seen has some of the units with different equipment listed in the game. I was wanting to check the historical value of what I have read. Also nothing again the designers I think they have done a great job on the game.

[JeffroK]

The Army in India had been stripped of its trained men and best equipment to support British efforts elsewhere. At Dec 41 it was covering Egypt, Cyprus, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Malaya & Hong Kong.
When Iran was invaded, 9th Armoured Bde was equipped with Ford Trucks and the odd Vickers MkVII Light tank, so anyone based further to the rear would have been well down the supply chain. The Australian armoured force was in a similar situation. *Thousands of Matilda/Valentine/Crusader had been sent to the USSR !!!!)

In addition, the powers that think they are considered the Burma/Indian border as impassable to AFV, the efforts of 7th Armoured Bde in Burma not considered as they were equipped with Light tanks, it was not until Slim despatched a complete Regiment of M3Lees to the Arakan that their potential realised.

If helpful, I have the WE of the British Armoured Brigade on Middle East establishment.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Thanks guys. I have looked at the fire and fury page. I like that, the other site did give me some info. I am asking because, I was looking at the armored units at the start of the game(Dec 7). Not one tank in the Brit/Indian armored/tank units. I find this odd. I wouldn't expect fully flushed out units but at least a few tanks. I also looked at the game TO&E, some of them don't have tanks in them or at least until 43. With some of the info I have seen has some of the units with different equipment listed in the game. I was wanting to check the historical value of what I have read. Also nothing again the designers I think they have done a great job on the game.

Remember the scene in "Lawrence of Arabia" where Lawrence tells the General in Cairo that he wants artillery for the Arabs? Arming the Indians with tanks would have had the same kind of reaction in 1941... "But what if they turn those weapons against US?!!" [X(]

[DOCUP]

Yes, I forgot to add the lend lease. I think in 1940-41 487 Matilda II's and Valentine tanks were sent to Russia. I can see that they thought the jungle as not being a great place for a tank, but India has lots of open areas for nice tank battles.

Did the Brits think that India would turn on them during the 1940s? I know there was a small minority that wanted independence but was it large enough to withhold some tanks?

[DOCUP]

Also the light arm rgts in the game they have light AFVs in 41 but 43 they have Stuart I's. I can see this progression. Now my question is heavy arm rgts have heavy AFVs in 41 but in 43 they have the same heavy AFVs. Shouldn't they be changed to a heavy or medium tank?

[Ian R]

Docup,

The allocation of M3 Medium tanks from US production to the Commonwealth in the period 11/41 - 5/42 was, in India's case, 517 Lee tanks, and 379 Grant tanks (896 total). I am not sure of their precise delivery dates, but if they were on the same schedule as Australian allocation (777), they were likely delivered in the period between April and December 1942. Note these are all factory fresh; 732 new M3s, mostly Grants, were allocated to the Middle East in the same period. Only 216 were sent to the UK, which sounds suspiciously like enough for one division + a few spares.

As far as I know the various delivery figures in the standard scenario are correct.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Yes, I forgot to add the lend lease. I think in 1940-41 487 Matilda II's and Valentine tanks were sent to Russia. I can see that they thought the jungle as not being a great place for a tank, but India has lots of open areas for nice tank battles.

Did the Brits think that India would turn on them during the 1940s? I know there was a small minority that wanted independence but was it large enough to withhold some tanks?

Not a small minority at all. The largest and most influential Indian political party was the Indian National Congress, which in 1942 under the leadership of Gandhi and others declared the "Quit India" policy which stated that they would not support the war against the Axis unless granted immediate Independence. The British were very concerned and saw fit to arrest and jail over 60,000 political leaders until 1945. In addition the Bengal suffered a catastrophic famine in 1943 which was greatly exasperated by British policy decisions. This is why you have garrison requirements in India in AE.

You also had extreme idealist such as Bose and thousands of Indian troops who actually went over to the Japanese in the cause of Indian independence. (There is a statue of Bose in the Indian parliament building today). I consider it one of the major miracles of WWII that 2.5 million Indian soldiers fought loyally for the Allies against the Axis. I think in the end, many Indians realized the real threat lay with the Axis. But without the Indian Army, I am pretty sure that the Axis would have won or come very close to it.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

2.5 million Indian soldiers fought loyally for the Allies against the Axis

Much of the Indian Army was employed on internal policing duties in the mid-east, or in India itself. Actually fighting the Axis was limited to about 12, maybe 15 divisions or division equivalents max at any one time, peaking in 45, but, TBF that is a (sustainable expeditionary force) contribution roughly equivalent to Canada+Australia+NZ+RSA combined.

I'm not sure India refusing to fight (and say declaring unilateral independence) would have lost the war, though. I don't think the IJA could have controlled it, same way they couldn't control occupied China.

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Early answer, I dont think there is a common TO&E. There may be a WE (War Establishment) for an Armoured Bde HQ.

The Armoured Regiments could be armed with M3/5 Stuarts, M3 Grants or M4 Shermans ans at time might have a mix (All would have had a M3/5 Stuart Sqn though)

There was also a Tank Brigade equipped with Valentine Infantry Tanks.

Seems the discussion here is based on lend lease equipment. In 1939 there were three types of tank used by Br, light used for recon, fast cruiser used to exploit breakthroughs and usually assigned to cavalry units, and slow infantry tanks used in the RTC too, as the name suggest, support infantry. All you need is here. http://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co.uk

I also found this. It's a pdf so just rename it.

[Ian R]

Interesting document - I'm guessing the "2nd Armored Independent Guards" is a typo for the 2nd Btn, Irish Guards (Armoured). Is that document #939BXAB from Nafziger? Another error on the 5th Gds armoured X is he nominates the "1st Motorized Grenadier Guards" when in fact it was a mechanised battalion. These sort of detail errors make me wonder if they are mere typos, or indicative that there are other less obvious errors. Nonetheless, Mr Nafziger's documents are a superb resource.

I think what Docup wants to know is what vehicles were issued to the various armoured regiments of the Indian Army at which times.

I am not aware of any UK produced cruiser tanks being issued to combat units in the Indian Army, in India. I'm guessing the brigades training in the mid east might have used some, in the same way that the 9th Au Divisional cavalry regiment had a mixed squadron of Crusaders and Stuarts in late 1942, all of which were handed back to the depots in Egypt when the division returned from the MTO.

Andymac has the Indian 31st Armoured Division as an invasion reinforcement, arriving with a regiment of Stuarts, and two of Valentines. I'm not game to argue he's wrong.

PS: @ Docup - if you go the Nafziger collection at CARL, checkout documents #939BIBB, 941PLAF, & 944PAAK and some of the surrounding Pacific series documents.

[DOCUP]

Thanks guys looking at some of the info you all have provided. I have found out that the 149th RAC had a few Valentine tanks before the war started and the 150th RAC had a few as training tanks. The TO&E was a mixed bag through out the war.

[JeffroK]

Of course you mean the Pacific War, not the other skirmish which had been running for about 27 months.

[DOCUP]

Yes, I mean the Pacific. I can understand the Heavy fighting in N. Africa, holding equipment in England for the possible invasion of England. I also know that Russia was in the war and needed equipment. But, I don't understand sending lend lease equipment to another country before you take care of your own needs. Yes, I consider India, Burma, Malyasia, and the others as British needs.

From what I have read. I maybe wrong. From 1940-41 between 466 to 487 tanks where sent to Russia. Sending 66-87 to the Far East would of made a difference. No, it wouldn't of won he war, but it would of made a difference.

[Ian R]

The UK built about 6,800 Valentines, starting in 1940, and finishing in 1945. Another 1300 or thereabouts diesel versions were produced by (?Canadian Pacific?). Of the total, some 3000 were shipped to the USSR, along with Matildas and Churchills. The Canadians only retained 30 Valentines for training - many of the rest were sent to the USSR, though some saw action in Tunisia.

The Soviets weren't all that impressed, but did use Valentines in combat. Matlidas equipped some tank formations at the battle of Moscow. 5th Mechanised Corp's tank brigade was completely armed with Matildas and Valentines at Chir River in December 1942. There was a tank unit armed with Churchills in action at Kursk (along with at least one brigade armed with M3 mediums). No Valentines that I am aware of. There were still Matildas operational in Soviet units in 1943 - the German 50mm a/t gun shells bounced off them like tennis balls. There is a story that the Soviet tankers called the Matilda "the English workman"- tough, reliable, but a bit slow. The Soviets classified the Valentine as a light tank, and used at least the 57mm (6lbr) armed variant in that role until late in the war.

So about 5,000 or so Valentines were retained by the UK. Eventually some were up-gunned through the 6 lbr to the UK equivalent of the 75mm/L38. Others were turned into/completed as combat engineering platforms, or Archer tank destroyers. They were used as gun tanks in combat in North Africa (including Tunisia), the Arakan, and by an NZ squadron in the Solomons, IIRC. Converted vehicles saw use in Sicily, Italy, etc. Some Mark XI vehicles were used as command tanks in Archer units in France. If the Brits had shipped Valentines, instead of Matildas, to Australia in 1942 they likely would have got a run in PNG, because they fitted the bill for what was needed - although the Matilda II was better protected and thus likely to have been preferred.


The Valentine was a nice, compact little tank, and although it became under armed later, had a good size turret ring. It commenced production in the dark days of 1940 when the UK had little else available and the 2 lbr could take out the German tanks. It used many components of the existing Vickers A9, which itself had used commercial "off the shelf" parts. Unfortunately, although reasonably well protected when it first appeared, it was too slow, having been designed in 1938 - for the wrong war. Initial production was low rate. The first 350, Mk I's, had been rushed into production and had faults that required remdial action. So there were likely only about ?? 1000 available pre December 41, and three divisions were using them for training in the UK. They first saw heavy action in Operation Crusader in November 1941, so it seems unlikely there were enough to ship large numbers (162 + for a brigade) to India.

As to Malaya, where a squadron (company) of Valentines could have stopped a regiment of IJA light tanks, they underestimated the IJA, and the need to support the Soviet Union took priority.

PS - found some production numbers (Canadian production didn't kick in until 1942):

Production of Valentine Tanks by year (UK Only)
1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945
Valentine (2pdr) 345 1663 1728 570 - -
Valentine (6pdr) - - 245 1084 629 96
Bishop - - 136 13 - -
Valentine Scissor Bridge - - 102 90 - -
DD Valentine - - - 26 247 -