I Goofed!

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tocaff
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I Goofed!

Post by tocaff »

I goofed. I ordered a convoy to move from Mombasa to the UK. I know that from Mombasa the only connection is Cape Town. Now the ships sit on the map unable to take orders, out of fuel and seemingly stuck. What will ultimately happen to these ships and their cargo?
Todd

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RE: I Goofed!

Post by btd64 »

Post a screen shot of the location on the map and the TF screen. Just want to take a look before I comment....GP
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by kbfchicago »

Pending GP's knowledgeable input based on your screen shot...my recollection for these is set the TF to return to Mombasa. Likely to take awhile at one hex a cycle/no fuel. Can not recall if I ever lost a ship (sunk due to excessive damage from no fuel) during off map transits, learned these lessons early in 2009-10.

Another "got'ya" to avoid was/is changing TF speed while off board. Still have note in my "never do this again" file about TF's getting hung up when you change speed (e.g. mission to full) while in off board transit.

Best of luck in recovery.

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RE: I Goofed!

Post by dr.hal »

Based upon my play, and my own less than desirable moves, if you have a TF/Ship off board in transit and runs out of fuel, it will move at one hypothetical hex per turn (thus taking a LONG time to reach its destination) BUT, and here is the good news, it will not incur damage due to that fuel shortage. Obtaining damage due to running out of fuel is a given IF the vessel or TF is on the board but doesn't seem to happen while off the board. Thus I have at times had a ship run at high speed off board so as to obtain it on board at an earlier date (and without damage) which is a good move IF you calculate the fuel consumption correctly which I don't seem to be able to do..... Hal
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by dr.hal »

Kevin,

I've changed ship's speed off-board on numerous occasions and never had a problem. What has been the problem from your perspective?
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by crsutton »

Send a copy of the turn to tech support. They can usually fix a bug like that.
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Based upon my play, and my own less than desirable moves, if you have a TF/Ship off board in transit and runs out of fuel, it will move at one hypothetical hex per turn (thus taking a LONG time to reach its destination) BUT, and here is the good news, it will not incur damage due to that fuel shortage. Obtaining damage due to running out of fuel is a given IF the vessel or TF is on the board but doesn't seem to happen while off the board. Thus I have at times had a ship run at high speed off board so as to obtain it on board at an earlier date (and without damage) which is a good move IF you calculate the fuel consumption correctly which I don't seem to be able to do..... Hal

My experience is that a TF that leaves off-map to another off-map, AND every ship has some fuel, they will never run out and will proceed at the set speed. But if even one ship LEAVES at zero fuel, it's one (mathematical) hex per turn and damage will accrue.

If any of the trip involves on-map movement paired with off-map the whole trip uses fuel.

I have often changed speeds of off-map TFs and never had a problem. The issues seen long ago that Michael had to intervene to correct were when players "spun" TFs in the off-map transit boxes, and the TF became unmoored from the game code. It didn't happen every time; one prominent AAR writer used to do it all the time. But it happened a fair bit.
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by btd64 »

Moose, That's what I remember. Thanks, I was looking for notes on this subject because I remember someone bringing it up. Can't find the notes....GP
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I goofed. I ordered a convoy to move from Mombasa to the UK. I know that from Mombasa the only connection is Cape Town. Now the ships sit on the map unable to take orders, out of fuel and seemingly stuck. What will ultimately happen to these ships and their cargo?

Just occurred to me to test this. You can't order that move, at least in 1942. If you try to set the destination to UK, or Canada, or EC (all I checked) you get an error message saying the TF can't go there. The TF will not leave Mombasa.

You did something else, or your game is corrupted.
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by bush »

In my experience, even after receiving gobs of advice from forumites and tech support, the ships NEVER reached their destination. I thus lost 3 x tankers!
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

In my experience, even after receiving gobs of advice from forumites and tech support, the ships NEVER reached their destination. I thus lost 3 x tankers!
I have had TFs hung up when I changed their destination orders while they were enroute between off-map and on-map, but they always eventually came back. Some took as long as six months. No idea what triggered the return.
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by Trugrit »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: tocaff

I goofed. I ordered a convoy to move from Mombasa to the UK. I know that from Mombasa the only connection is Cape Town. Now the ships sit on the map unable to take orders, out of fuel and seemingly stuck. What will ultimately happen to these ships and their cargo?

Just occurred to me to test this. You can't order that move, at least in 1942. If you try to set the destination to UK, or Canada, or EC (all I checked) you get an error message saying the TF can't go there. The TF will not leave Mombasa.

You did something else, or your game is corrupted.

Moose,

Try your test again.

He did something different by setting the home port to UK.
Then clicking return to United Kingdom.
The ship will then plot to go on map and try to travel across the wide Pacific which it can't do to get to the UK.
It will go into the holding box on the map left edge.

The holding box is where it can go nuts.
Give it orders to go back to Mombasa and you will get a turn around as shown below.

Then try and give it other orders to go to another port on map and it won’t do it.
Give it orders to go to Cape Town and it will turn around but still say it is going to Mombasa.

You never want to change a TF destination in a holding box because it may or can do strange things.

My golden rule is to think carefully about off map movement and then to never change a TF once the
Movement is underway. If you do it may cause strange things to happen and almost all of them are very bad.



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Zorch
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: Trugrit
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: tocaff

I goofed. I ordered a convoy to move from Mombasa to the UK. I know that from Mombasa the only connection is Cape Town. Now the ships sit on the map unable to take orders, out of fuel and seemingly stuck. What will ultimately happen to these ships and their cargo?

Just occurred to me to test this. You can't order that move, at least in 1942. If you try to set the destination to UK, or Canada, or EC (all I checked) you get an error message saying the TF can't go there. The TF will not leave Mombasa.

You did something else, or your game is corrupted.

Moose,

Try your test again.

He did something different by setting the home port to UK.
Then clicking return to United Kingdom.
The ship will then plot to go on map and try to travel across the wide Pacific which it can't do to get to the UK.
It will go into the holding box on the map left edge.

The holding box is where it can go nuts.
Give it orders to go back to Mombasa and you will get a turn around as shown below.

Then try and give it other orders to go to another port on map and it won’t do it.
Give it orders to go to Cape Town and it will turn around but still say it is going to Mombasa.

You never want to change a TF destination in a holding box because it may or can do strange things.

My golden rule is to think carefully about off map movement and then to never change a TF once the
Movement is underway. If you do it may cause strange things to happen and almost all of them are very bad.



Image
It was this kind of quirk that put me off playing AE.
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: Trugrit
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



Just occurred to me to test this. You can't order that move, at least in 1942. If you try to set the destination to UK, or Canada, or EC (all I checked) you get an error message saying the TF can't go there. The TF will not leave Mombasa.

You did something else, or your game is corrupted.

Moose,

Try your test again.

He did something different by setting the home port to UK.
Then clicking return to United Kingdom.
The ship will then plot to go on map and try to travel across the wide Pacific which it can't do to get to the UK.
It will go into the holding box on the map left edge.

The holding box is where it can go nuts.
Give it orders to go back to Mombasa and you will get a turn around as shown below.

Then try and give it other orders to go to another port on map and it won’t do it.
Give it orders to go to Cape Town and it will turn around but still say it is going to Mombasa.

You never want to change a TF destination in a holding box because it may or can do strange things.

My golden rule is to think carefully about off map movement and then to never change a TF once the
Movement is underway. If you do it may cause strange things to happen and almost all of them are very bad.



Image
It was this kind of quirk that put me off playing AE.
It isn't quirky - you (like me a few years back) do not understand how the game engine handles plotting courses. It is designed for on-map movement and will work out the "best course" between hex coordinates. But when you go between on-map and off-map, there is no path of hexes for the AI to follow - there was not enough room to show all the hexes in the map window. So the AI notes where the TF hits the map edge and calculates based on standard distances to or from the off-map location, then comes up with an arrival date at the off-map base or on the map. The holding box is where the TF waits for the calculated date to arrive.

So when you give it new orders to change direction while in the holding box, the AI does not know where the TF physically is on its travels - the holding box is not a hex with a given location. It is impossible for the AI to work out how to get somewhere if it does not know where the TF is at the time, so you get some bizarre, divide by 0 type results.

This inability to change orders is one reason why most players have a gentleman's agreement with their IJ opponent that the IJN will not stake out the exit from the off-map locations. IRL the Allies would be able to re-route TFs when the IJN was prowling those areas.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: Trugrit



Moose,

Try your test again.

He did something different by setting the home port to UK.
Then clicking return to United Kingdom.
The ship will then plot to go on map and try to travel across the wide Pacific which it can't do to get to the UK.
It will go into the holding box on the map left edge.

The holding box is where it can go nuts.
Give it orders to go back to Mombasa and you will get a turn around as shown below.

Then try and give it other orders to go to another port on map and it won’t do it.
Give it orders to go to Cape Town and it will turn around but still say it is going to Mombasa.

You never want to change a TF destination in a holding box because it may or can do strange things.

My golden rule is to think carefully about off map movement and then to never change a TF once the
Movement is underway. If you do it may cause strange things to happen and almost all of them are very bad.



Image
It was this kind of quirk that put me off playing AE.
It isn't quirky - you (like me a few years back) do not understand how the game engine handles plotting courses. It is designed for on-map movement and will work out the "best course" between hex coordinates. But when you go between on-map and off-map, there is no path of hexes for the AI to follow - there was not enough room to show all the hexes in the map window. So the AI notes where the TF hits the map edge and calculates based on standard distances to or from the off-map location, then comes up with an arrival date at the off-map base or on the map. The holding box is where the TF waits for the calculated date to arrive.

So when you give it new orders to change direction while in the holding box, the AI does not know where the TF physically is on its travels - the holding box is not a hex with a given location. It is impossible for the AI to work out how to get somewhere if it does not know where the TF is at the time, so you get some bizarre, divide by 0 type results.

This inability to change orders is one reason why most players have a gentleman's agreement with their IJ opponent that the IJN will not stake out the exit from the off-map locations. IRL the Allies would be able to re-route TFs when the IJN was prowling those areas.
The User Interface should make this clear, if it is the designer's intent. In real life there was no reason that new orders couldn't be given regardless of where a ship currently is.

Why can't the program be improved to estimate the ships' current position based on how far they have traveled since last departure/exiting the map edge? "bizarre, divide by 0 type results" are not acceptable unless passing through a time vortex. [:)]
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Trugrit
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: tocaff

I goofed. I ordered a convoy to move from Mombasa to the UK. I know that from Mombasa the only connection is Cape Town. Now the ships sit on the map unable to take orders, out of fuel and seemingly stuck. What will ultimately happen to these ships and their cargo?

Just occurred to me to test this. You can't order that move, at least in 1942. If you try to set the destination to UK, or Canada, or EC (all I checked) you get an error message saying the TF can't go there. The TF will not leave Mombasa.

You did something else, or your game is corrupted.

Moose,

Try your test again.

He did something different by setting the home port to UK.
Then clicking return to United Kingdom.
The ship will then plot to go on map and try to travel across the wide Pacific which it can't do to get to the UK.
It will go into the holding box on the map left edge.

The holding box is where it can go nuts.
Give it orders to go back to Mombasa and you will get a turn around as shown below.

Then try and give it other orders to go to another port on map and it won’t do it.
Give it orders to go to Cape Town and it will turn around but still say it is going to Mombasa.

You never want to change a TF destination in a holding box because it may or can do strange things.

My golden rule is to think carefully about off map movement and then to never change a TF once the
Movement is underway. If you do it may cause strange things to happen and almost all of them are very bad.


Ah. The OP never said he changed the homeport.
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by dr.hal »

In relation to an opponent staking out an entrance hex for off board units upon their arrival, one thing I have done is to give the unit way points on the board that are off the beaten path, this forces the unit to enter a different hex than might otherwise be expected.
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RE: I Goofed!

Post by tocaff »

Yes they TFs were in a holding box. I gave a new home base and then ordered a return and it appears to have worked.
Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
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