Updated 30/07/2022: Bottlenecks in the Pacific v1.3b

[Revthought]

So bear with me here, I've only ever played the Allies s my knowledge of the game economy is far less than your typical Japanese player; however, if only Ali produces supply then what purpose does HI serve, other than being a strategic bombing target?

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: sanderz


Hi LST


I have been having a look through your mod documentaion, an amazing piece of work, must have taken you endless hours. I do however have a few questions/comments that i hope you can help with.


1) How did you set the new repair costs for engines? I see from the editor that there is a value for "load cost" that ties in with the values you mention, does the game use this "load cost" as the repair cost or is there another field somewhere that defines this? Reason for asking is that in my DBB-C game the editor shows a load cost for engines of zero and i had assumed the repair cost was hard coded.

Yes, the "load cost" governs the supply expenditure for repairing industries and engines.


2) How have your new rules for supply production worked out? How far into the game have you played using this mod?

Frankly, I don't know - therefore the disclaimer in the changelog that it is a seat-of-the pants approach. I have only played two full months, the rest of my testing was done by changing the start date of the scenario in order to see how late-coming units look and behave. The at-start supplies production for Japan has not changed much, so I do not expect major issues. It will just be slower to increase production, since only LI repairs will add supply generation (and not HI and LI repairs simultaneously).


3) Did you ever create the alternative version of your mod with standard engine production and standard HI / supplies production?

Not yet, but summer holidays are coming...


4) I think your your changes to the plane upgrade paths for the Zero actually make it very much easier (rather than harder) to beeline for the later model Zeros.

Don't think so. in stock, the Rufe shortcut allows to start M5 research with fully repaired factories in 4/42. In my mod, M5 cannot be researched before M3 6/42 and M3a 12/42 have been researched. Should slow it, assuming no "jumping the queue" takes place (i.e. all models of a line need to be researched).



5) You say "It is recommended to ship excess resources from Australia / India / Aden/ Cape Town etc. to CONUS and UK to feed the industries there." Does this mean Oil/Fuel as well? I have no idea how allied production works and assumed they just got fixed amounts of everything. Do you mean that the Allies also need Fuel and Resources for HI and that then affects their production? Or are you saying to do it for historical reasons?

UK and CONUS have huge amount of industries but do not generate equivalent resources, so will face a deficit. UK has LI only, so needs resources only. CONUS has HI as well, so needs resources and probably oil/fuel as well (from the Caribbean Sea Frontier (ex Cristobal base). Allied player actually does not need HI points for production, but I would recommend a house rule that HI must be kept running.


6) Regarding the section on Supply Cap House Rules i.e.

What does "SPS-size base" mean? (what does SPS stand for?) [?Something?PortSize] ???.

Standard potential size - a term from the AE manual. A port size "3(3)" indicates a port built-up to the SPS of 3. It can be "overbuild" to 6(3).

"House Rules: 1. Expand ports (not air bases or forts) when aim is purely logistics, 2. no strategic movements of ground and air units unless uninterrupted string of port SPS-size bases exists along the intended route (i.e. if the inland port has an SPS of 3, it must be built to 3 before strategic rail movement is allowed in that hex – further expansion up to max size 6 simulates further improvements to the Railroad capacity, like added sidings, switching yards etc.)"

I really don't understand item 2 here and how its supposed to work, please could you elaborate and perhaps give an example or two based on locations on the map (e.g. Ledo and Anyang where seemingly no rail transport of units would be allowed).

This applies only to destroyed or yet-to-be-build railroads (dotted black-grey railroads on my map). Ledo is linked to Calcutta by a regular rail line, so no restrictions apply.

Classic example for the above house rule would be the "Burma-Thailand Death Railway" which was built during the war. It does exist as railroad in the pwhexe.dat file - but in order to use it, all bases along the railroad must be build to their SPS port size (3 if I am not mistaken) before rail strat movement for units is allowed over that stretch of railway.


7) I see you have made changes to the Chinese OOB but whats the supply situation like for the Chinese now, has it been increased at all?

Gosh, it has been so long I worked on China - I can't remember if I have modified China supply generation, but I don't think so. However, "my" China is covered with dot bases which do have a very small inherent supply generation (local farmers) to feed the "civil administration units" which are there to prevent the auto-switching of hex ownership. The consumption of these "placeholders" is smaller than the minimum daily supply generation, so each dot will generate a small supply surplus. In isolated areas supplies may accumulate (which may entice the Japanese player to launch the infamous "rice offensives" to steal the harvest...), unless guerilla operations use it up.


8) I am thinking of starting a game, however are there any updates due in the next few weeks?

No major updates planned. I will wait for player feedback and collect things I discover during my own slowly advancing H2H game for an later update - depends on how many things needs to be fixed and how urgent.

Many thanks, and sorry to bombard you with all these questions.

No problem, my pleasure [:)]

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: Revthought

So bear with me here, I've only ever played the Allies s my knowledge of the game economy is far less than your typical Japanese player; however, if only Ali produces supply then what purpose does HI serve, other than being a strategic bombing target?

HI builds everything, ships, planes, guns. HI is converted to eg. nav, veh, arm points...this is from which stuff is build. Eg. a tank with 20 tons weight will cost 20 VEH points (or 200? cant remember) I only know if you upgrade a tk unit or it has huge losses a lot of veh points will be eaten up...and also planes cost per frame and per engine. so Emily eg. is the most expensive plane you can have


VEH points build vehicles and tanks.... quite simple actually.

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

SO did you change too many unit values ? I was working in a own scen (with some more bottlenecks too) based on the recent AI and "make stuff more worthwhile and scarce" threads..also added some fun plane design (mostly upgraded to exiting models, so all NOT fantasy but possible in the real WW2)

While working in the editor I also checked unit values (eg. tanks) and some were quite "strange", eg. US tanks seem to be overrated and some 43/44 squads too. Also tank destroyers had too high armor as well too high soft attack...

Will check you mod if time

No, as far as I can remember I did not tinker much with the DBB device values - not exactly my area of expertise. Exception are load costs which I have modified in some cases, for example certain AFVs which had load costs allowing air transport have been increase above the air transport threshold. I may have modified some other device values if knowledgeable forumites suggested that tweaking / bugfixing is necessary.

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

ORIGINAL: Revthought

So bear with me here, I've only ever played the Allies s my knowledge of the game economy is far less than your typical Japanese player; however, if only Ali produces supply then what purpose does HI serve, other than being a strategic bombing target?

HI builds everything, ships, planes, guns. HI is converted to eg. nav, veh, arm points...this is from which stuff is build. Eg. a tank with 20 tons weight will cost 20 VEH points (or 200? cant remember) I only know if you upgrade a tk unit or it has huge losses a lot of veh points will be eaten up...and also planes cost per frame and per engine. so Emily eg. is the most expensive plane you can have


VEH points build vehicles and tanks.... quite simple actually.

Dankeschön Landsmann, warst schneller als ich (muß nebenbei so tun als würde ich arbeiten [;)]).

[Alpha77]

Bitte, ich habe SPWAW über Jahre gespielt - and also made scens and oob for it, and this is for 95% landbased stuff in this game. Also TOAW the same. I researched a lot of tanks, guns mostly. I had not so much knowledge of ships and Japanese stuff before this game actually, but learned a lot. So you had a Sherman that the Allies get in 12/42, this must be the 1st Sherman version. This one has the early armor model (cast??) and the low velocity short 75mm gun. I believe in the game this has more armor as the 1944 version of the T34/85 and perhaps even more AT value [:D] But the 85mm of T34 was almost as good the 75/48 German gun. So totally impossible. The 85mm russian ofc more HE than the 75/48. But this one was what the late Pz4 and Stugs had. The Russian 85 a bit less PEN then the 75/48.


However you also get a later Sherman, which has newer armor version, wet storage, better tracks and a 76mm 3 inch AT gun (instead the 75mm) but the 75mm was also build continued. So which one is it ? If the 76mm it has more AT value, the 75mm shell was more effective as HE.....

No Sherman can have more "armor" than a T34, impossible. Perhaps the ones from the Korea war ("easy8")....and NO Sherman 75mm gun can have more PEN than the late war Russian 85 (or 75/48 German): Not possible. Andy Mac corrected this partly but now eg. the Sherman has TOO LOW armor LOL [:D]

I tried to find a middle ground between the orig and andy values... too much work tho. I also assumed the late Sherman the Russian get is the 76mm version, but the Brits one ? No idea, guess more the orig 75mm one as the Brits had the Sherman Firefly (only in Europe) with 17pdr too (guess they had no 76mm Shermans at all - simply cause the 17pdr was the best AT gun from the Allies and the Brits cramped it somehow in a Sherman turret, not much room for crew left ofc. They did not need a 76mm Sherman)

Also the first M3 Stuart and Valentine were ridiculous overpowered (guess they should be renamed M48 Patton or Leopard1 which sounds more correct *irony*). Valentine early only had 2pdr gun and 2 MGs iirc. 2pdr has NO HE shell, only AP..and 2 MGs for Valentine can never generate the high HE value it has in the game. We can add 2 points for the 2 pdr AP shell (not explosive only KE)

Btw, what is with SU152/JSU152, they had only 12 or so shells storage space for these huge guns. They should get a malus or every one of them needs 2 trucks assigned with ammo. YUP these beasts could kill Tigers, but only if not run out of ammo and get a chance to shoot with the very low ROF they had. However feared by Germans anti infantry and anti entrechment weapons. But they had also a so high AT value in orig game version, they could kill 2 Tiger in a row...

[sanderz]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

ORIGINAL: sanderz


Hi LST


I have been having a look through your mod documentaion, an amazing piece of work, must have taken you endless hours. I do however have a few questions/comments that i hope you can help with.


1) How did you set the new repair costs for engines? I see from the editor that there is a value for "load cost" that ties in with the values you mention, does the game use this "load cost" as the repair cost or is there another field somewhere that defines this? Reason for asking is that in my DBB-C game the editor shows a load cost for engines of zero and i had assumed the repair cost was hard coded.

Yes, the "load cost" governs the supply expenditure for repairing industries and engines.


2) How have your new rules for supply production worked out? How far into the game have you played using this mod?

Frankly, I don't know - therefore the disclaimer in the changelog that it is a seat-of-the pants approach. I have only played two full months, the rest of my testing was done by changing the start date of the scenario in order to see how late-coming units look and behave. The at-start supplies production for Japan has not changed much, so I do not expect major issues. It will just be slower to increase production, since only LI repairs will add supply generation (and not HI and LI repairs simultaneously).


3) Did you ever create the alternative version of your mod with standard engine production and standard HI / supplies production?

Not yet, but summer holidays are coming...


4) I think your your changes to the plane upgrade paths for the Zero actually make it very much easier (rather than harder) to beeline for the later model Zeros.

Don't think so. in stock, the Rufe shortcut allows to start M5 research with fully repaired factories in 4/42. In my mod, M5 cannot be researched before M3 6/42 and M3a 12/42 have been researched. Should slow it, assuming no "jumping the queue" takes place (i.e. all models of a line need to be researched).



5) You say "It is recommended to ship excess resources from Australia / India / Aden/ Cape Town etc. to CONUS and UK to feed the industries there." Does this mean Oil/Fuel as well? I have no idea how allied production works and assumed they just got fixed amounts of everything. Do you mean that the Allies also need Fuel and Resources for HI and that then affects their production? Or are you saying to do it for historical reasons?

UK and CONUS have huge amount of industries but do not generate equivalent resources, so will face a deficit. UK has LI only, so needs resources only. CONUS has HI as well, so needs resources and probably oil/fuel as well (from the Caribbean Sea Frontier (ex Cristobal base). Allied player actually does not need HI points for production, but I would recommend a house rule that HI must be kept running.


6) Regarding the section on Supply Cap House Rules i.e.

What does "SPS-size base" mean? (what does SPS stand for?) [?Something?PortSize] ???.

Standard potential size - a term from the AE manual. A port size "3(3)" indicates a port built-up to the SPS of 3. It can be "overbuild" to 6(3).

"House Rules: 1. Expand ports (not air bases or forts) when aim is purely logistics, 2. no strategic movements of ground and air units unless uninterrupted string of port SPS-size bases exists along the intended route (i.e. if the inland port has an SPS of 3, it must be built to 3 before strategic rail movement is allowed in that hex – further expansion up to max size 6 simulates further improvements to the Railroad capacity, like added sidings, switching yards etc.)"

I really don't understand item 2 here and how its supposed to work, please could you elaborate and perhaps give an example or two based on locations on the map (e.g. Ledo and Anyang where seemingly no rail transport of units would be allowed).

This applies only to destroyed or yet-to-be-build railroads (dotted black-grey railroads on my map). Ledo is linked to Calcutta by a regular rail line, so no restrictions apply.

Classic example for the above house rule would be the "Burma-Thailand Death Railway" which was built during the war. It does exist as railroad in the pwhexe.dat file - but in order to use it, all bases along the railroad must be build to their SPS port size (3 if I am not mistaken) before rail strat movement for units is allowed over that stretch of railway.


7) I see you have made changes to the Chinese OOB but whats the supply situation like for the Chinese now, has it been increased at all?

Gosh, it has been so long I worked on China - I can't remember if I have modified China supply generation, but I don't think so. However, "my" China is covered with dot bases which do have a very small inherent supply generation (local farmers) to feed the "civil administration units" which are there to prevent the auto-switching of hex ownership. The consumption of these "placeholders" is smaller than the minimum daily supply generation, so each dot will generate a small supply surplus. In isolated areas supplies may accumulate (which may entice the Japanese player to launch the infamous "rice offensives" to steal the harvest...), unless guerilla operations use it up.


8) I am thinking of starting a game, however are there any updates due in the next few weeks?

No major updates planned. I will wait for player feedback and collect things I discover during my own slowly advancing H2H game for an later update - depends on how many things needs to be fixed and how urgent.

Many thanks, and sorry to bombard you with all these questions.

No problem, my pleasure [:)]

thanks for the info - much appreciated

cheers

[Alpha77]

But movies get it even more wrong ofc, I just googled Sherman versions and found this:

snip

in the film, since a point is made in the movie that Collier loves his tank, and he and the crew have named it “Fury” – the name they’ve painted on its 76 mm gun barrel. Supposedly, they’ve all been fighting together – in Fury – since the North Africa campaign in 1942. If that was so, Fury would have probably been a much earlier model M4 Sherman, like an M2 or M4A3, each of which went into production in 1942. But with a 50 percent casualty rate in most mid-WWII tank battles, an earlier M2 or M4 model that survived 3+ years of combat would have been unheard of. (In fact, only one Sherman tank – a Canadian one – is known to have survived as long as from June 1944’s D-Day all the way to May 1945’s V-E Day.)

n real life, the Easy Eight, equipped with its 76 mm gun, was a relatively late addition to the war effort – only in production since late 1944. The Easy Eight featured a bigger gun and a better suspension. And they were not completely at the mercy of German tanks.

snip.....


https://jerrygarrett.wordpress.com/2014 ... itts-tank/


[;)]

BTW: It is not 100% correct, that Shermans were "On the mercy of German tanks" this depends on more factors. The 76mm Sherman could kill a Tiger if the right angle and distance and Tiger crew newbies. Also there not many Tigers in France anyway and the Sherman could deal with Pz3 and Pz4 ofc. Vs. Panther again depends, side shot on Panther will punch through. Not front ofc.

And he also has it wrong, when it sounds like only the easy8 had the 76mm, nope there was another version with 76 before (just based on the 75M3 and gun swapped)

And he also glorifies German tnaks toomuch lol, even the Panther was not perfect. In fact the crew conditions were on par with T34. But gun much better ofc



@ LST: Do I need a seperate install for your mod ? Can I not unzip in the scen folder [&:] [:(]

[sanderz]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

SO did you change too many unit values ? I was working in a own scen (with some more bottlenecks too) based on the recent AI and "make stuff more worthwhile and scarce" threads..also added some fun plane design (mostly upgraded to exiting models, so all NOT fantasy but possible in the real WW2)

While working in the editor I also checked unit values (eg. tanks) and some were quite "strange", eg. US tanks seem to be overrated and some 43/44 squads too. Also tank destroyers had too high armor as well too high soft attack...

Will check you mod if time

PS:If you edited/corrected the unit values too and AA values and some more fun airplanes, I will try you mod. But I am too historic a guy to find most values others enters as wrong, mostly tanks and guns. Both versions the ORIG scens coming with the game (WAY TOO HIGH often) and the updated Andy Mac scen2 (sometimes TOO low) need re-work sadly. But it is possible these values have no big impact on the game, as I remember in JI AI game years ago I had not much problem with eg. the 43+ Allied tank units - and this must have been the original TOO HIGH values version. But this was against AI, so no real measuering stick.[8|] I just remember this early AI game was broken somehow, the Allies would not bring the big units like Brits guards tanks to the front for some reason. They bunched up in some Indian cities I found out.....never much bothered to do fighting (guess Indian tea is the best for some reason!)

I have only looked at whats called the Sherman V whose stats do indeed appear to be way off. Google tells me that the Sherman V was actually the M4A4.

LSTs mod however uses the data from the dababes mod so not sure if it was their mistake or (just as likely) i am missing something obvious.

It may be helpful to look at Big Bs mod as he has the Sherman V stats on a par with the other Shermans - however i think he re-calculated stats for all AFVs so the values may not be directly compatible with this mod, however looking at the relative values may be useful if you want to make your own changes.

[Alpha77]

Sherman V is the Brits one, yes ?

I always get confused they named their tanks different from the US ones typical always want their own thing [:D]

I have already edited this one, so do not know the orig values anymore (but too high for sure, but we can agree it is the 75mm Sherman so easy to find the values. We can add some AT for late war better ammo perhaps, buzt believe the 75 got no APCR ammo only the 76)

Just downloaded the LST mod to check, but not sure if I can use it at all, I do not want a 2nd version of the game (I only can try out scens)....mh, seems I need to overwrite also game files with this mod, or can I only unzip the art and scen folders and itz works and the other scens still work too?


I also checked the ironman ones, all to fantasy/scifi for my taste.
UPDATE: The tank values in ironman are much better, but you get fanatasy units

[sanderz]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Sherman V is the Brits one, yes ?

yes : British and Lend lease

ORIGINAL: Alpha77
Just downloaded the LST mod to check, but not sure if I can use it at all, I do not want a 2nd version of the game (I only can try out scens)....mh, seems I need to overwrite also game files with this mod, or can I only unzip the art and scen folders and itz works and the other scens still work too?

I assume you mean BigB mod? Anyway, you can't mix mods, you need to copy the base installation folder and apply the mod to that i.e. do that for every mod you want to look at

i keep a base install folder, copy that and install the extended maps into the new folder - i then keep these 2 folders updated (and unused) and copy whichever one is needed whenever looking at a new mod

[Alpha77]

Mh, I believe I downloaded the latest Andy Mac scen2 - but perhaps I have some error in the install or it was not the latest....

Sherman V in this one: 120AT 60armor.... 120AT ???? [>:] And T34/85 88At (not adding up in any version so far)


LST; pls. give us the values for the Sherman M4 (1st US version), ShermanV (Brits) and T34/85 in your mod ? Then I decide if I try it out (assuming I can not change them myself?) Ah and Valentine / M3 Stuart (early)

[LargeSlowTarget]

Alpha77, why don't you copy your AE installation folder, then rename the copy to "AE Bottlenecks" or whatever and install the mod into this copy?

I have installed the game one time, then applied the official patch and the beta patch - but I never play with that installation.

Instead, I have copied & renamed this original install folder, created a start shortcut and then installed the desired mod in the copied folder.

Rinse and repeat for each mod / PBEM game > no interference / mix-ups between mods and games.

Don't have the time to check the Sherman etc. values right now, will try to get back to you later.

[Alpha77]

TBH I do not want to stress my HDs with much copying operations.... I always care for my hardware. And I do not even know if it makes sense. I would prefer a mod I can unzip to scen/arts folders and ready to go. I downloaded your mod already and will perhaps try it later.

Just for reference I post my Sherman values:

M4 early (gun: 75mm,US): 60 armor / 75 AT / 27 AS (still too high, but for "balance" and compromise
Sherman V (75,B): - same as above, but perhaps 2-3 armor points added for the later Shermans better armor quality
M4 Russian LL late (76,R) 68 armor / 95 AT / 25 AS (less AS for 76mm gun not so effective vs. "soft" as 75mm) IF THIS SHERMAN actually represents the 76 one, what I do not know, only the designers know that. Would good if they named the tank eg: M4M2/75 or M4M3/76

I did not find a late war US Sherman (which could have same values as the Russian LL one) in game database.

For discussion...(seperate thread better)
Sorry for my partly OT posts it seems you mod is cool judging from the documentation [:)] Really cool. But it seems also to add more bases and other stuff, in my thinking I would rather reduce stuff or combine (eg. combine 2 small IJN float units to 1) for easier play and oversight and MORE SCARCE and worthwhile stuff.

But, the idea with HI is very cool!! Also more expensive and slower base building, which exactly suits my ideas. [:)]

I missed a bunch of pics of the yummy nurses in this thread btw [:'(] I would add them to my version too (but only as change to an existing unit, not a new unit adding more confusion and time to manage)

[LargeSlowTarget]

I have added an "Errata section" in the first post of this thread to collect errors and glitches that have been found while playtesting and which can be easily corrected with the editor.

I will update the install files when reaching a "critical mass".


1. "Locations" slot 193 > RNZAF Command has nationality "Australian" - should be "New Zealand"
2. "Locations" slot 2773 > Borneo Constabulary has symbol = 13 - should be 19
3. "Ships" slot 312 > the captain of IJN Akikaze points to an empty "Leaders" slot (5098). That slot was supposed to contain an easter egg - a new leader with killer stats (very high exp, very high nav skill) : Captain Tateo Nakame, a.k.a. "Bungo Pete". I think the problem comes from the fact that the name contained quotation marks - the witploadae.exe editor seems to have issues with that.

[Falken]

Hi LST,

So i've fixed the first 2 in my downloaded version, but what is the process for fixing the 3rd (missing captain)?

Thanks
Dave...

[LargeSlowTarget]

You will need to add the desired leader in the "Leaders tab at slot 5098. You can just copy&paste a random IJN leader into the slot and than modify the name and stats. Here is what I have intended to use :

[Falken]

Hi LST,

I know that you are working on an update on this (civilians, etc.). Do you happen to have an ETA? My other two games have gone bust, so was thinking of trying yours for a H2H.

Just wondering if I should wait a bit, or just go with your current version, but with 3 main fixes described in this thread.

Thanks,

[LargeSlowTarget]

I have just started playtesting Bottlenecks v1.1 with nerfed civilians, standard engine production, some corrections and tweaks and a few new hulls and LCUs. If you want to beta-test, I can shoot you the files as an "incremental update".

[szmike]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

TBH I do not want to stress my HDs with much copying operations.... I always care for my hardware. And I do not even know if it makes sense.

It doesn't. You'd need to copy much bigger amounts of data to have an impact. Or run stress test apps for days.