My immersion problem with Naval warfare

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Rongor
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My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by Rongor »

Hey there,
I am still pretty new to the game but totally not new to the genre. Probably I arrive to late to the party to voice an opinion, yet I don't see a reason to keep it hidden.
I am absolutely grateful for the changes announced with the 1.03.01 Beta
- naval units that are surprised by a hidden enemy unit will no longer be reduced to 0 action points, remaining action points divided by 5 will now apply with the following exceptions:
- naval units in cruise mode will still be reduced to 0 action points.
- Subs in Silent mode will be reduced to remaining action points divided by 2.
- naval units that have engaged in combat will now have their action points reduced to remaining action points divided by 2.
- naval units can now pass through enemy naval units but may suffer a 50% chance of a 1 strength point loss for doing so.
I think this is going into the right direction.

To the current system (1.03.00), this is what puts me off:

While I absolutely understand that huge portions of any game of a grand strategic scope will have to deal with abstractions, I also can follow that in (most cases) the naval and air warfare suffer the most from these imperatives.

Probably there is no satisfying way to simulate naval encirclement or some kind of surprise factor hitting a vessel when stumbling over an unexpected enemy force.
Simulating encirclements in this game is obviously handicapped by the hex tile size and the amount of time which is represented by a game turn. It is of course not really feasible to have a naval engagement, which might have taken some hours in real life, last for 1 weeks, forced by the turn lengths. But, as already said, I understand there is no other way to do it, as the other option would mean to not have such engagements ingame at all or to reduce them to some abstract on the fly calculations "a naval engagement has happened last turn, your unit took 2.63 points damage", like itis done with convoy raiding.
Instead we have some kind of minigame inside the game, where sea hex tiles become a chess board, with naval units as playing figures and a set of rules.
So far, it is ok for me.

What I absolutely couldn't stand, was when a surface combatant lost all ActionPoints because it stumbled over some enemy. This mechanic, apparently copied from the land warfare mechanics in this game, killed my immersion abruptly. The point is, naval combat is unlike land warfare. There is no concealment the enemy could have hidden in and laid an ambush. But the game interprets any discovery of an enemy vessel as successful enemy ambush. Which felt totally wrong. You send a cruiser, you may want to do that intentionally to discover enemy vessels. After leaving home port, your cruiser stumbles over an enemy sub or a destroyer, only 3 hex tiles off of your home port. Your cruiser patrol is effectively been postponed by this encounter, for a full week, just like that.
In real life, your cruiser would probably have radioed the presence of the enemy home, afterwards proceeding with its original task.
Not so here. Your cruiser loses 20 Action Points and drops anchor, postponing its cruise for a week, by that time you had scheduled it to be some thousands of miles away in some area of operation. Not so here. You met an enemy destroyer. You don't even engage it. Yet your cruiser is doomed to linger in place, losing a full turn. Outright nonsense if you ask me.
This gets even worse when your enemy stops your vessel's movement like that by placing a cheap unit in your path. Since you can't proceed, you are lingering dead in the water. Then, during the enemy turn, they come in with loads of combatants and damage your unit severely, maybe even destroying it. You won't want to proceed into the area of operations with that damaged unit. No. You will be happy your cruiser wasn't killed and send him the 3 hex tiles back into your port for repairs. So each way your combat patrol was canceled. By a submarine you only spotted, but which made you stop in place for a week.

The changes on the 1.03.01 seem to address this. Honestly it is still too harsh in my opinion. Under no circumstances should a naval unit get its ActionPoints reduced to zero at all. Never. Reducing it partially is probably generally a good solution though.

Ambushing enemy naval units should be in the hands of a smart player, who has hunter/killer units ready in vicinity of the location where your units might end their move. To have movements end at a specific location by game mechanic, only by stumbling over a single contact, regardless of its size, is going way too far.
This is just too easy. Let the ambusher make up his mind more, where your moves might end and therefore guessing where it might be smart to place his encirclement forces. Don't let the ambusher do it by this current "road blocks" mechanic. This feels just lame and gamey and also it doesn't leave much room for a player to tactically plan a safe route for getting units somewhere without being blocked.
You can't really consider right now where your enemy might have his encirclement forces ready. Instead, the road block could be anywhere. No strategy, no fun, at all.

Maybe let my cruiser lose 2 AP upon encountering some enemy, no more. The enemy already benefits from the encounter by now knowing of my cruiser's presence and the general direction it is marching. My enemy will also be able to see, in which direction my cruiser continues the march after the encounter. Now it is a matter of my enemy's skill to estimate where my cruiser reached in this turn when reaching zero APs. Then he can draw his forces to that area and try to encircle me. That would be indeed an ambush I could accept. Right now it is just lame and gamey and killing immersion big time. And it doesn't require much tactic skill on my enemy's side.

Meeting an enemy vessel should never cut ActionPoints to zero. Keep in mind that meeting enemy vessels at sea is the only purpose of your Navy. They won't drop anchor. They will engage or they will continue their patrol, avoiding engagement.

Avoiding enemy engagement might cost Action Points, but only if it is reasonable to assume that some otherwise unnecessary maneuvering is necessary. There is no way a destroyer could be blocked by a single battleship. The destroyer would notice the battleship from a long range and simply pass it in a safe distance. The much slower battleship has no chance of inflicting any inconvenience. So this encounter shouldn't cost the destroyer more action points than it will need to circumnavigate the hex tile in which the enemy battleship is located.
jgsIII
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by jgsIII »

I have to say I agree with Rongor. I am also new to the game but by no means new to strategic wargaming.

First of all the scale on land and sea is wrong. I would be willing to bet you could fit the entire German surface fleet into a single game hex. I know lifting the no stacking rule just for naval units would be a major undertaking but it would then allow more realistic play. So you could assemble a gaggle of transports, add a destroyer screen and off your convoy would go. Subs could even work together as a task force, or pack if you will.

Naval discovery should be nothing more than a pause in the move while you decide to attack without any loss of anything. Non-DD ships shouldn't even discover subs but the subs should know about them passing by. Engine noises could be heard underwater a long distance.

For land units the scale is closer at least for the army formations. But to say all formations take up the same room doesn't work. And HQ's as combat formations. I don't think I have ever read of a HQ mustering up their security troops and cooks to attack any enemy formation. If attacked they shouldn't even slow the enemy down.

I am sorry this sounds like a terrible flame but it's not meant to be. Playing War in the Pacific AE sets the bar pretty high for strategic WWII games.
Sugar
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by Sugar »

Sorry folks, but this is a case where an old SC-veteran has to insist: this game is not a military simulation, it`s even not about historical accuracy!

If one likes to play something like that, it can easily be found at other Matrix-titles, TOAW or WITE p.e..

In this title the geographical dimension does not fit to the given units, of which one can place only 1 in 1 hex. This may not be very accurate, but it defines the gameplay. And it also leads to the possibility of reenact military manouevres like flanking, encirclement, cutting of supply lines (by destroing enemy HQs as well as bombarding supplyressources by strat. bombing or naval gunfire).

These opportunities are unique features, and they allow a very unique style of playing a very operational and strategic game, especially for multiplayers. Did you know the predecessors were played in their own league?

Of course that doesn`t mean, the game couldn`t be improved. Compared to the predecessors the new features are already a huge improvement, and as we already learnt Bill and Hubert are busy to implement the wishes of their costumers, as seen by the improvement of the stealth-modus.

But please keep in mind, what this game`s about and that every change has to be well balanced.
vonik
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by vonik »

I subscribe to the above comment .
SC is a chess game with military counters and a chessboard in form of Europe .
There is a (very) vague similitude with WWII using rock-paper-scissor kind of rules . Subs beat capital ships, destroyers beat subs (not so much now with the silent mode) and capital ships beat destroyers .
Besides these rather simple and indeed mostly irrealistic rules, 80% of the game is managing correctly research and MPPs .

Because of that, like in chess, the paramount and only goal of the devs is certainly balance .
The rules and parameters must be such that 2 players of similar skill have each approximately a 50/50 chance to win regardless whether they play Axis or Allied .
I think that the game is not yet properly balanced but this is work in progress .

Games like WitE or WitP are much more "realistic" but this is paid by a huge amount of micro management .
So basically you get realistic but time consuming or irrealistic but fast . Each has its interests but it is definitely a completely different game play .
Rongor
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by Rongor »

May I remind that I clearly stated that I understand, expect and accept the need for abstraction.
I criticized, that naval encounters are handled like land encounters. In this regard I explained why I don't understand naval action points can/could be severely reduced only by encountering any enemy watercraft.

Please don't derail this into a "how much realism is legit" discussion. It wasn't meant this way. I never aimed to enjoy this game as a WW2-simulator. Yet I am not ready to welcome game mechanics which lack any basis in historic/realistic references.

If you understand SC3 to be a fantasy chess-game with cosmetic design being the only connection to WW2, it is absolutely ok and I am happy for you. That doesn't mean I am not allowed to expect a WW2 strategy game focusing on actual historic events because this is exactly what was advertized. Hence I am giving my opinion to help the developers gaining a broad feedback how their customers see them succeeding with delivering the game in a state they intended it to be.
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TheBattlefield
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by TheBattlefield »

ORIGINAL: Rongor

May I remind that I clearly stated that I understand, expect and accept the need for abstraction.
I criticized, that naval encounters are handled like land encounters. In this regard I explained why I don't understand naval action points can/could be severely reduced only by encountering any enemy watercraft.

Please don't derail this into a "how much realism is legit" discussion. It wasn't meant this way. I never aimed to enjoy this game as a WW2-simulator. Yet I am not ready to welcome game mechanics which lack any basis in historic/realistic references.

If you understand SC3 to be a fantasy chess-game with cosmetic design being the only connection to WW2, it is absolutely ok and I am happy for you. That doesn't mean I am not allowed to expect a WW2 strategy game focusing on actual historic events because this is exactly what was advertized. Hence I am giving my opinion to help the developers gaining a broad feedback how their customers see them succeeding with delivering the game in a state they intended it to be.
Of course, I understand your defense reflex, but I bear in mind that Vonik and Sugar probably forgot to quote the forum participant JGS.

SC 3 is not and should not be a fantasy chess game. But still more a chess game with the highest possible "WW2" proportion than a straightforward WW2 battle simulator. If you have the last as your goal, you will end up with a different but not necessarily better game. My opinion.
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Leadwieght
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by Leadwieght »

I'd like to get back to the original theme of the thread: the naval mechanics, esp. the handling of spotting and surprise.

I'd hate to see the possibility of surprise encounters completely taken out of the naval game. They did happen IRL. The Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau bumped into the Renown early in the Norway campaign and were lucky to escape with only some damage. then later they caught and sank the Glorious. The Scharnhorst lost its radar and ran into the Duke of York in late 1943, with fatal results.

Especially early in the war, radar wasn't all that reliable and poor weather in the Atlantic frequently made aerial recon spotty. It's true that faster/smaller ships could often break off contact before getting hurt, but not always.

Maybe ships could have a "Contact/Evasion" rating that would vary depending on their size and speed. No ship would be completely immune to surprises, but smaller and/or faster ships would be more proof against loss of movement when being surprised.

Guderian1940
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by Guderian1940 »

I agree with the issues described.

I think the Beta changes may help a lot. Units that come in contact are not pinned for destruction but can move a few hexes depending on AP's. Enough to make it harder to find again.

The best part is hit and run tactics are reduced. Enough or too much time will tell.

I think that Air is not given enough spotting. The Uboats would operate as far as possible from land based Air. This is completely missing. The Air coverage as the war went on reduced the areas the Ubaots could operate. As Escort Carriers were produce allowing 100% air coverage of Convoys. The Uboats were vastly reduced in effectiveness. I doubt very much that this is that case in the current game. As time goes on the Uboats gain experience and Tech. Spending money on Escorts or Maritime Bombers has only minimal effect on the Uboat war. They help with major ships but are not much use.

I still think the game would be better served if each side just could spend MPP's on either Escort or raiding for the convoy system. Major Naval units are fine and fun.

Running around with Destroyers looking for UBoats is silly. There were not enough of them till the Uboat menace was vastly reduced due to Air and Enigma. One thing to know what your enemy is up to another and another to actually be able to do something about it.

I just think that the whole Naval system was not working. After 40 years of war gaming I am pretty sure I can tell when something is simply not working. This was simply not working.

I think when we reach V1.1 a vastly improved gaming experience will be had.

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Icier
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by Icier »

My major problem with the naval side is the almost virtual indestructibility of carriers @ the beginning of the war. Its impossible to sink any, unless you wish to sacrifice your
navy.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
Trump2016
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by Trump2016 »

ORIGINAL: Ice

My major problem with the naval side is the almost virtual indestructibility of carriers @ the beginning of the war. Its impossible to sink any, unless you wish to sacrifice your
navy.

Subs!
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Icier
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by Icier »

Nope
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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sPzAbt653
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by sPzAbt653 »

I'd hate to see the possibility of surprise encounters completely taken out of the naval game. They did happen IRL.
I don't doubt that, but I doubt they happened frequently, and the cases you mentioned didn't involve surprise encounters, all those ships were aware that there were enemy vessels in the areas involved and none were surprised.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ba ... charnhorst
I am only contradicting you because I disagree that the mechanic that we have is a valid part of the game. I feel that an additional movement cost to maneuver around enemy vessels would be appropriate [zone of control cost], along with a corresponding shot if you try to escape [similar to the current mechanic of naval units passing thru enemy units and taking a shot], or the option to stay and fight. Stopping dead without a chance to fight or being given 2 mp's to move a little away seems too harsh.
Additionally I feel that all naval units should have the '?' unit as subs do because naval movements were monitored closely. The other side may not have known exactly where the enemy was, but they new they were 'about'.
Sugar
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by Sugar »

If you want to see enemy vessels, why not buying escort carriers or marinebombers? They`re already implemented.

I can`t see the need of changing game mechanics, if one doesn`t use given opportunities.
Later that day, reconnaissance aircraft located a convoy of some 20 transports escorted by cruisers and destroyers approximately 400 nmi (740 km; 460 mi) west of Tromsø.

They recognized ships by sending planes historically, why don`t you do? If you don`t, be surprised.
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LiquidSky
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by LiquidSky »



A lot of those recon planes were inherent to the ships themselves. Many capital ships carried aircraft for the sole purpose of spotting. This scale of the game doesn't really support the idea of using an entire Luftwaffe or the 8th Airforce just for spotting a small area for 3 weeks of flying.
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sPzAbt653
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Many capital ships carried aircraft for the sole purpose of spotting.
Thank you.
They recognized ships by sending planes historically, why don`t you do?
I do but it doesn't work well, the scouting planes only run in a straight line, as opposed to searching a radius. So you need a whole bunch of planes to search an area. Because of the two above issues I used the editor to give capital ships a spotting radius of 6 hexes, but this results in most of the naval game being the movement of ships in six hex increments, which is boring. The next step is giving ships a spotting radius equal to their movement allowance. And we still have the issue of units not spotting until they move.
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Leadwieght
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by Leadwieght »

Hi sPzAbt

My historical examples were intended to illustrate that TACTICAL surprise did sometimes happen in the naval war in the Atlantic. Of course commanders knew or guessed that there were enemy ships in the general vicinity, but they were nevertheless sometimes unable to avoid getting within gun or torpedo range. I think that is what the game is trying to simulate with its "surprise" mechanics. I agree that the naval game overdoes the effect of surprise and handles it somewhat rigidly, I'd just hate to see it disappear entirely as a possibility.

I agree that spotting of ships could be more varied. Maybe upgrades in Naval Weaponry could increase the spotting range of surface ships. I think Naval Weaponry tech is more about radar and fire control than bigger guns anyway. I can't think of any already-commissioned capital ships that were up-gunned during the war--they were, I think, improved by adding radar and better fire control or perhaps more reliable recon aircraft.

Just some thoughts.
Guderian1940
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by Guderian1940 »

I think the Beta changes are a compromise when running into ships. Game testing will determine if it is a good compromise or need further tweaking.

As far as Air. There is a disconnect as to what Air can do compared to what the game allows. As mentioned they would patrol an area/arc not in a straight line to the max of their range. Perhaps if a recon mode for Air was available which shortens their range but allow for a wider Arc. Especially for Maritime Air. Maybe an easy solution would be to give Maritime Air a wider view instead of the current narrow view. Would be worth buying them.
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wallas
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by wallas »

I want to go on record that I do not like this change to the naval system in regards to changing naval unit freezing. To me it just seems like this is a change to appease poor sloppy play with naval units. As sugar pointed out there is many tools in the force pools to allow you to scout sea hexes. Rather then making a rule adjustment to compensate for poor play I do not understand why the developers just do not give the Italian and Germans cheap MPP E boats like the British torpedo boats to scout and if people are still being surprised with smaller fleets then they are even more at fault since there is more tools at there disposable to avoid surprise.
johanssb
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by johanssb »

Agreed. The developers seem to be adjusting the game based on a small number of vocal posters. Not good in my opinion.
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sPzAbt653
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RE: My immersion problem with Naval warfare

Post by sPzAbt653 »

But I don't want to manage all these minor naval and air units in order to paint a strategic picture of the naval situation. E-boats and scout planes in a strategic level game ? [:(]
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