OECM Capabilities.....revisited

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DWReese
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OECM Capabilities.....revisited

Post by DWReese »

I know that we have discussed OECM before, but that was a while back and a lot has changed since then. I was wondering if someone could supply some short answers to some quick questions. I only mention this because there have been so many recent changes, and with the new add-on coming (can't wait), I was wondering if this is an area that will be addressed. In any case,......

1. Are there any limits to exactly how far an OECM can extend? It seems that as soon as an OECM platform is active and placed on the screen, all of the OpFor radars which are active and are facing in that direction, are now listed as being jammed. In other words, does the OECM have an exact, (or approximate), range, or is it essentially just endless?

2. Kind of the same question, but.....I assume that in real life an OECM platform that is 175 miles away from target radar is less-powerful than one that is 50 miles away due to the distance. (If not, please let me know.) I know that radar units will eventually burn through the jam if the distance is short, but IS an OECM jammer in the game now more powerful if it is still a distance away but closer (like 50 miles instead of 175 miles) to the unit, or is it still that the unit is either determined to be simply jammed or not jammed?

3. When using an OECM platform, it seems to me that the jammer hides itself pretty well for a long period of time, but if another platform gets outside of 10 miles away from it, then it is more likely to be discovered. Is there a given radius for each OECM jammer and, if so, is that listed somewhere? I set up a cool situation, which should have worked great, but my strikers got outside of about 10 miles away from the jammer (regardless of the actual distance to the target) and they were suddenly revealed when I wasn't expecting that. I'm just curious.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Doug

User2
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RE: OECM Capabilities.....revisited

Post by User2 »

does the OECM have an exact, (or approximate), range, or is it essentially just endless?
I am sure the answer is yes. "JAMMED" doesnt mean "not working". More like "reduced capabilities" to spot/track targets. The further jammer is away, the less its influence is.

Some RL numbers: radio noises from jamming B-52s were spotted by s-75 radar station at 180-200km distance. Jamming B-52 could be targeted and tracked by north vietnamese s-75 only at distances 15-30km (depending on B-52 course)
I know that radar units will eventually burn through the jam if the distance is short, but IS an OECM jammer in the game now more powerful if it is still a distance away but closer (like 50 miles instead of 175 miles) to the unit
Power of ground radar emission > jammer's power. So evently the jamming noise will be burned through.
Is there a given radius for each OECM jammer and, if so, is that listed somewhere?
Did not test it in cmano. In RL it is more about angle than distance.

Jamming model is really good here. What i'd like to see in cmano is jamming of allied/own units. Currently even if your unit is of the same type as enemy, your unit will not get jammed. It funny to see one enemy f-16 jammed and one allied f-16 fresh and ready for action while both being irradiated by newby growler f/a-18.
In 1960s during vietnam war F-105s on sead mission were flying with jamming equipment turned off because it could interfere with shrike ARM guidance system. They used to turn on its jamming stuff only after detecting sam missile launch.
DWReese
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RE: OECM Capabilities.....revisited

Post by DWReese »

I am asking this question concerning the use of OECM units.

I have a air strike inbound, armed with PGMs which have a 10-mile range.

I have an OECM A/C which has been jamming for a long time. It obviously says "jam", and the target radars all say ""jammed", so it is obviously working.

The ground targets are protected by older SAMs which have a range of 20 miles, or so.

From playing around with the jammers, I know that the burn through is somewhere around 25 miles.

So, if the strikers have to get within 10 miles to attack, and the burn through is at 25 miles, and the SAMs can start shooting at 20 miles, is it even worthwhile having the OECM A/C?

I'm asking this from a tactical point of view, not from a game mechanics perspective.

Doug
User2
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RE: OECM Capabilities.....revisited

Post by User2 »

Sam max range is at 20nm and the burn through distance is at 25nm?
Maybe be this jammer is not good againt that sam?
It was said by devs somewhere that jammers have working frequencies. Maybe that sam works in another frequency interval? Afaik "Jammed" doesnt mean actually that the target capabilities are reduced.
Anyway, you can get into sam DLZ, wait for a missile launch, turn away and fly out of the max missile range. Repeat. Evently sam will run out of missiles [:)]. It's not hard to play against AI. The real thrilling drama of this game can only be revealed during a game against a human being.
mikmykWS
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RE: OECM Capabilities.....revisited

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: User2

Sam max range is at 20nm and the burn through distance is at 25nm?
Maybe be this jammer is not good againt that sam?
It was said by devs somewhere that jammers have working frequencies. Maybe that sam works in another frequency interval? Afaik "Jammed" doesnt mean actually that the target capabilities are reduced.
Anyway, you can get into sam DLZ, wait for a missile launch, turn away and fly out of the max missile range. Repeat. Evently sam will run out of missiles [:)]. It's not hard to play against AI. The real thrilling drama of this game can only be revealed during a game against a human being.

This will only work if the scenario editor didn't modify the WRA automatic firing range and self defense range down below max range. This was implemented to deal with this somewhat gamey tactic.
DWReese
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RE: OECM Capabilities.....revisited

Post by DWReese »

I'm not talking about "beating" the game. I'm talking about real life.

If the radar can start seeing through the jamming at a range of 25 miles out, and the SAM can start shooting at a range of 20 miles out, and the striker can't drop his ordinance until they are 10 miles out, does it really matter whether an OECM unit is jamming any more or not?

If the SAM can't shoot until the striker is within 20 miles, and at that point the radar has already burned through the jam, then it appears to me that the jammer (in this situation) can not provide any more benefit toward helping the striker, so at that point it could simply RTB.

Obviously, the jammer masks the strikers from 25 miles to however far away it wants, but at some point the radar can see the strikers. My question pertains to what exactly are the benefits of the jamming unit AFTER the burn through is complete? Do jammers in general provide any further benefit to the strikers after the burn through, or should they just RTB at that point?

Again, I'm talking real life tactics, not game mechanics.

Doug
mikmykWS
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RE: OECM Capabilities.....revisited

Post by mikmykWS »

If the target knows the burn through range of course it would consider the jamming useless but irl its likely an approximated value as there are lots of variables that may impact it. This is likely where doctorine and tactics come in. If you're hoping a pro says this is exactly how we handle a SA-15 don't get your hopes up[:)]

More to the point if you generally know how effective your enemies AD systems are and the parameters of the weapons your using why did you think a jammer and LGB was a good idea to begin with? Why not use different systems that have a better chance.If it's all you have then why not explore using terrain or the firing limitations of the SAM systems? Lots of ways to approach this problem.Rags flight planner might offer some more detailed options but you can do lots now.

As far as further benefits what do the game logs tell you?

Thanks

Mike

DWReese
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RE: OECM Capabilities.....revisited

Post by DWReese »

Mike,

I was essentially limited in ordinance due to the distance to the target. I made a distinct effort to have an OECM a/c accompany the strikers. The OECM a/c did its job, and delivered the strikers to the area where the defender's radar finally burned through. All of this is as expected. Then, I realized that it took lots of effort to coordinate the OECM and strikers to arrive at the same time. As I said, I was proud to get to this point. But, when the burn through occurred, it started me thinking that I had assigned this OECM a/c to the mission, and it took a lot of effort to do so, but by the time that the burn through occurred, the strikers still weren't in position to fire. So, the OECM a/c successfully masked the strikers until the very end when they were finally exposed, but the SAMs couldn't have shot at them anyway because of their limited range. So, it would appear that in this case, because of these factors, the OECM a/c did what it was supposed to do, but at the time when the SAMs could start shooting, the OECM couldn't help any longer. So, I figure that I just had the OECM a/c along for the mission, but it wasn't actually necessary to do so.

It's no big deal. I was primarily interested in seeing if OECM a/c would be expected to reduce the hit chances by still being present, even after the burn through had revealed the strikers. I guess the answer is no, they don't.

Doug

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