All things Football (soccer) related

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warspite1
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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1
if you are going to insist that winning the Champions League with Porto

Porto is no mickey mouse team. It's a historical European team.
warspite1

I have no idea who thinks Porto is a mickey mouse team - but certainly not me.

As for being an 'historical team', that means what? Anderlecht are an 'historical team', Celtic are an 'historical team', and if either won the CL it would be a miracle.

Winning the Champions League is incredibly difficult - and for a club the size of Porto its doubly, trebly so. But they have won it - and it was Jose Mourinho that managed them when they did.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
Warspite
its called managing.

ROFL

Samuel Eto'o playing as Right Back at the Camp Nou is now called managing. One thing is evident. Mourinho was admitting a) Barça were vastly superior (they would have won that match 9 out of 10 times) and b) despite the money at his disposal, he was incapable of building a similar team...

You really see the glass half full.
warspite1

Why would you roll on the floor laughing at the idea that Mourinho manages his teams? You might hate him personally, you might hate his brand of football - and that is all fine and your choice - but if you are discounting the fact that he is a successful manager, and he is an astute tactician, then the conversation has kind of hit the buffers because that comment is patently false and not a little embarrassing. Just how does anyone win numerous Championships, Champions Leagues*, domestic cups in Portugal*, England, Italy* and Spain and not be able to manage?

Anyway, if that is the level of absurdity that this debate has got to then I'm out and you can feel free to spout your anti-Jose stuff without fear of contradiction in future.


Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by shunwick »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Name me 500 top European clubs and I will name you 500 that either want Jose or wanted him at one point.
ORIGINAL: warspite1

Anyway, if that is the level of absurdity...

Braintree would have him. We wouldn't be disappointed if he didn't win the Champions League in the first season either - National League South Champions would be a perfectly acceptable title. I wonder if we can have a whip round? Part-time, of course, but I think we can possibly stretch to £150 per week...

Best wishes,
Steve
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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Why would you roll on the floor laughing at the idea that Mourinho manages his teams?

That was me.

I literally rolled on the floor laughing when I watched live on TV that genius "masterstroke". Errr nooo [:D] Tactical genius LOL. "Right there, lads, you park the bus right there"; Eto'o, you fall back and play as right back..."
[center]
<<Parking the Bus on Legendary Level>>[/center]

With all due respect to Scots and Belgians, Portuguese football was superior. 2004 Euro final (which they lost) anyone? Porto in the final surprised you. It did not surprise me at all.

Besides, I remember Porto, Deportivo and Monaco in semifinals and final IIRC...
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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: shunwick
ORIGINAL: warspite1

Name me 500 top European clubs and I will name you 500 that either want Jose or wanted him at one point.
ORIGINAL: warspite1

Anyway, if that is the level of absurdity...

Braintree would have him. We wouldn't be disappointed if he didn't win the Champions League in the first season either - National League South Champions would be a perfectly acceptable title. I wonder if we can have a whip round? Part-time, of course, but I think we can possibly stretch to £150 per week...

Best wishes,
Steve
warspite1

Listen, I'll get my people to speak to Jose's people and will get back to you. But before I do, can you stretch to £200, a free parking space and swivel chair or is this a deal breaker?

Oh and you will also need to buy a trophy cabinet - a big one [:)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

With all due respect to Scots and Belgians, Portuguese football was superior. 2004 Euro final (which they lost) anyone? Porto in the final surprised you. It did not surprise me at all.

Besides, I remember Porto, Deportivo and Monaco in semifinals and final IIRC...
warspite1

Again, I just don't know what you are trying to prove (well I do), much less your thinking here? Celtic and Anderlecht were examples but there are literally hundreds of 'historical clubs' (whatever that is) that have never got a sniff of the Champions League and, like Porto, are not expected to. Are you really saying that the Dutch League is weaker than the Portuguese League? When was the last time Ajax troubled the Champions League scorers?

You are not surprised? Well bully for you - but they sure as hell surprised the rest of the football world though - as did Monaco, the other finalists that year. And can I ask you to confirm how many Champions - or even finalists - there have been since the Champions League started, from outside the English, Spanish, German and Italian leagues? I believe Ajax and Marseille won it in the first three years and early on there were some losing finalists too + Monaco later. But thereafter?

So basically your hatred for Mourinho is leading you to argue that Porto winning the Champions League - in the face of competition from the two Spanish giants, from AC from Juve, from Bayern, from Manchester United etc was no big deal.


Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
there are literally hundreds of 'historical clubs' (whatever that is) that have never got a sniff of the Champions League and, like Porto, are not expected to.

Pure hyperbole. As a matter of fact Porto HAD already won ONE CL. + the quality, skills of Portuguese football (very similar to their Iberian neighbours). + Benfica wins aka they make it to your "list". Who said they are total outsiders and not supposed to win?

According to you Steaua coach has to be a demigod. Whatever you say, no mickey mouse team. Celtic on the other hand
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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1
there are literally hundreds of 'historical clubs' (whatever that is) that have never got a sniff of the Champions League and, like Porto, are not expected to.

Pure hyperbole. As a matter of fact Porto HAD already won ONE CL. + the quality, skills of Portuguese football (very similar to their Iberian neighbours). + Benfica wins aka they make it to your "list". Who said they are total outsiders and not supposed to win?

According to you Steaua coach has to be a demigod. Whatever you say, no mickey mouse team. Celtic on the other hand
warspite1

Once again you provide an answer that is either disingenuous or simply shows that you have no understanding of how football has changed. It also continues to use the phrase 'mickey mouse team' as though this is something I have accused Porto of being i.e. yet more disingenuous comment. [&:]

Porto had won a Champions League already. Correct. You then raise Benfica and then Steaua Bucharest. Also correct. So? Football, at least European football has been moving inexorably in one direction - certainly since the birth of the Champions League - and that movement is only accelerating. The big clubs are getting richer and the clamour for a closed shop amongst those clubs continues to reverberate.

You mention clubs winning the European Cup from the 80's and the 60's [8|] as though that proves your point. But in doing so you totally ignore the reality. Well based upon your skewed analysis and faux conclusions, based on the past (which of course is ALWAYS a guarantee of the future [8|]) it would not be a shock for Celtic (winners in the 60's), Feyenoord (winners in the 70's), PSV Eindhoven (winners in the 80's) or Red Star Belgrade (winners in the 90's) to win the Champions League any time soon. Why stop there? a Greek team were finalists in the 70's, as was a Swedish team. No doubt Panathinaikos and Malmo will be in the Champions League final shortly. Er right....

Of course the unexpected can happen in football - and it is possible that Monaco could win it this year - but then given that France is the 5th of the top 5 leagues - while that feat would be impressive - it would hardly be in astounding territory. But if they won it, it would be a great feat and who knows, here's a radical thought.....maybe, just maybe, they have a really good manager..... [:'(]

Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by VPaulus »

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Once again you provide an answer that is either disingenuous or simply shows that you have no understanding of how football has changed. It also continues to use the phrase 'mickey mouse team' as though this is something I have accused Porto of being i.e. yet more disingenuous comment. [&:]

Porto had won a Champions League already. Correct. You then raise Benfica and then Steaua Bucharest. Also correct. So? Football, at least European football has been moving inexorably in one direction - certainly since the birth of the Champions League - and that movement is only accelerating. The big clubs are getting richer and the clamour for a closed shop amongst those clubs continues to reverberate.

You mention clubs winning the European Cup from the 80's and the 60's [8|] as though that proves your point. But in doing so you totally ignore the reality. Well based upon your skewed analysis and faux conclusions, based on the past (which of course is ALWAYS a guarantee of the future [8|]) it would not be a shock for Celtic (winners in the 60's), Feyenoord (winners in the 70's), PSV Eindhoven (winners in the 80's) or Red Star Belgrade (winners in the 90's) to win the Champions League any time soon. Why stop there? a Greek team were finalists in the 70's, as was a Swedish team. No doubt Panathinaikos and Malmo will be in the Champions League final shortly. Er right....

Of course the unexpected can happen in football - and it is possible that Monaco could win it this year - but then given that France is the 5th of the top 5 leagues - while that feat would be impressive - it would hardly be in astounding territory. But if they won it, it would be a great feat and who knows, here's a radical thought.....maybe, just maybe, they have a really good manager..... [:'(]

I agree with you. Here in Portugal we argue, that nowadays, the UEFA Cup is the only chance for a Portuguese team have for winning again a European trophy. In order to win the Champions, we must have all the stars aligned in the right position, like it happened with Leicester last year. [:)]
By default, only one of the big "sharks" can win it. They have the best players, resources (money) and some have also the best managers.
This trend started around the middle of the 90's.
The one that Mourinho won with Porto in 2004 came as a surprise although not totally unexpected. Porto had a good team that year. But besides having good players, it had a good manager... Mourinho. He made the difference. This was before he becomes a superstar and the special one.

We (me and all unbiased football fans here in Portugal who don't support one of the three big teams) knew that he was a different type of manager, the moment he was hired by Benfica to replace Jupp Heynckes in the beginning of the season (2000-2001). Almost instantly, the team started to play well and getting good results. He was sacked 3/4 months later, but that was due to inner problems inside Benfica (a new president was elected) not because he was incompetent.
Then he was the manager of União Leiria, and after a couple of months he was hired by Porto. The rest you know.
It was a shock in the beginning, as we weren't used to his level of arrogance.
It took me many years to accept and understand why he does it (although I still don't like it).
That's the main reason why some people hate him.
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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by shunwick »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: shunwick
ORIGINAL: warspite1

Name me 500 top European clubs and I will name you 500 that either want Jose or wanted him at one point.
ORIGINAL: warspite1

Anyway, if that is the level of absurdity...

Braintree would have him. We wouldn't be disappointed if he didn't win the Champions League in the first season either - National League South Champions would be a perfectly acceptable title. I wonder if we can have a whip round? Part-time, of course, but I think we can possibly stretch to £150 per week...

Best wishes,
Steve
warspite1

Listen, I'll get my people to speak to Jose's people and will get back to you. But before I do, can you stretch to £200, a free parking space and swivel chair or is this a deal breaker?

Oh and you will also need to buy a trophy cabinet - a big one [:)]

After consulting with the supporters club members, we can offer a part-time contract at £150 per week, a loyalty bonus at £30 a week, a promotion bonus of £750, free parking space, swivel chair, and a LARGE trophy cabinet. We can throw in an electric heater for his office as well although this will be probably be second-hand.

Best wishes,
Steve
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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by shunwick »

In other news, Newcastle and West Ham (and some other clubs) have been raided by the HMRC in a £5 million tax probe. Arrests have been made.

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Steve
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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by TulliusDetritus »


Again
warspite1
there are literally hundreds of 'historical clubs' (whatever that is) that have never got a sniff of the Champions League and, like Porto, are not expected to.

If that's not an elegant way to call them mickey mouse team, then I don't know what it is. So Porto is like "hundreds" of irrelevant teams.

I don't need to prove anything. I always knew the only secret in football is this: great players tend to win. You possibly missed the generation of the Decos, Figos, Baias, Coutos and Co. Had you paid attention, you'd have known something good was going on. A certain country was somehow producing talent. Which is why those who paid attention knew Porto winning was no mystery.

The Golden Rule of football was there: good players were available. Winning is never guaranteed though. That's the other well known golden rule (that the Dutch and many others learned the hard way).

So comparing Porto with hundreds of other irrelevant teams is utterly ridiculous.
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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


Again
warspite1
there are literally hundreds of 'historical clubs' (whatever that is) that have never got a sniff of the Champions League and, like Porto, are not expected to.

If that's not an elegant way to call them mickey mouse team, then I don't know what it is. So Porto is like "hundreds" of irrelevant teams.

I don't need to prove anything. I always knew the only secret in football is this: great players tend to win. You possibly missed the generation of the Decos, Figos, Baias, Coutos and Co. Had you paid attention, you'd have known something good was going on. A certain country was somehow producing talent. Which is why those who paid attention knew Porto winning was no mystery.

The Golden Rule of football was there: good players were available. Winning is never guaranteed though. That's the other well known golden rule (that the Dutch and many others learned the hard way).

So comparing Porto with hundreds of other irrelevant teams is utterly ridiculous.
warspite1

Condescending comments aren't helping your argument anymore than putting words in my mouth is helping you. That behaviour simply exposes the paucity of your argument.

Mickey mouse team, I repeat, is your nonsense - not mine.

I have not called Porto a mickey mouse team and if you think that stating that a club is not expected to win the Champions League means they are Mickey Mouse then, as mentioned before, you simply don't understand football.

Newsflash. Arsenal are not going to win the Champions League next season. According to you I must think they are a mickey mouse club. Because of my allegiance to a different North London club, I dislike Arsenal with a passion. However, unlike you I can separate my dislike for something with an appreciation for what they are. Arsenal are one of European football's great historic clubs. They are not going to win the Champions League next season and on current form are not expected to. That does not make them Mickey Mouse. Same goes for Porto.

Do you understand now? Is the penny dropping?

Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Newsflash. Arsenal are not going to win the Champions League next season. According to you I must think they are a mickey mouse club.

Unless you're ready to swap positions, of course. But you were not talking about the poor gunners eh...
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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Newsflash. Arsenal are not going to win the Champions League next season. According to you I must think they are a mickey mouse club.

Unless you're ready to swap positions, of course. But you were not talking about the poor gunners eh...
warspite1

....and I don't even understand what that sentence means.

Let me make it simple.

You won't accept that Mourinho is a great manager. Therefore your argument is that there was nothing special about Porto winning the Champions League - effectively that anyone could do it.

I said that was not true - and as every year progresses, thanks to the way the money men run football - so it becomes ever more difficult for the clubs from the smaller leagues (even the big clubs from those leagues) to get success. Mourinho achieved something special with Porto. Get.Over.It

But you can't so to counter, you tried two tactics:

a) you recounted tales from Benfica in the early sixties (when football was very different) and Porto in the eighties (when the economics were very different) to...ahem....prove that a Portuguese team winning the Champions League happens all the time (again to try and negate Mourinho's achievement). How many since Jose left then?

b) you needed to make Porto look like a European powerhouse (thus again diminishing Mourinho's input) and then to further deflect your argument - which you know is frankly risible - you decided to muddy the waters and make out I was insulting Porto. That is a pretty shameful debating tactic.

So however much you try to put words in my mouth or whatever faux arguments you put forth about the state of European football over the last 20-30 years, the above is this latest 'debate' in a nutshell, and its all down to one thing. You are so blinkered in your hatred of Mourinho you cannot accept he might actually be a very good manager. You discount his achievements and the sheer number of trophies won. Worse, you have even moved the goalposts. You started off the original debate ages ago saying that the Champions League was everything - and that suited your argument then because Mourinho 'failed' at Real Madrid and Guardiola was proving successful at Barca. Now what happens? Now that a) Guardiola has failed at Bayern in the CL (but did win the Championship in a one-horse race) and b) Porto won the Champions League with Mourinho in charge, you feel the need to change tack and what was it?
Besides, the CL title is basically a matter of luck (the cup thing vs regularity ie leagues).
Really? So how many league titles has Jose won in four different countries?
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: shunwick

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: shunwick





Braintree would have him. We wouldn't be disappointed if he didn't win the Champions League in the first season either - National League South Champions would be a perfectly acceptable title. I wonder if we can have a whip round? Part-time, of course, but I think we can possibly stretch to £150 per week...

Best wishes,
Steve
warspite1

Listen, I'll get my people to speak to Jose's people and will get back to you. But before I do, can you stretch to £200, a free parking space and swivel chair or is this a deal breaker?

Oh and you will also need to buy a trophy cabinet - a big one [:)]

After consulting with the supporters club members, we can offer a part-time contract at £150 per week, a loyalty bonus at £30 a week, a promotion bonus of £750, free parking space, swivel chair, and a LARGE trophy cabinet. We can throw in an electric heater for his office as well although this will be probably be second-hand.

Best wishes,
Steve
warspite1

My people have spoken to Jose's people and we are certainly in the ball-park here.

Reminds me of this superb sketch [:)] Remember this one? [&o]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amZsdpLXcIo

Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: shunwick

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

Listen, I'll get my people to speak to Jose's people and will get back to you. But before I do, can you stretch to £200, a free parking space and swivel chair or is this a deal breaker?

Oh and you will also need to buy a trophy cabinet - a big one [:)]

After consulting with the supporters club members, we can offer a part-time contract at £150 per week, a loyalty bonus at £30 a week, a promotion bonus of £750, free parking space, swivel chair, and a LARGE trophy cabinet. We can throw in an electric heater for his office as well although this will be probably be second-hand.

Best wishes,
Steve
warspite1

My people have spoken to Jose's people and we are certainly in the ball-park here.

Reminds me of this superb sketch [:)] Remember this one? [&o]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amZsdpLXcIo

Would that be a LEATHER swivel chair?

And a king-size ego massager. [:D]
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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Newsflash. Arsenal are not going to win the Champions League next season. According to you I must think they are a mickey mouse club.

Unless you're ready to swap positions, of course. But you were not talking about the poor gunners eh...
warspite1

....
You won't accept that Mourinho is a great manager. Therefore your argument is that there was nothing special about Porto winning the Champions League - effectively that anyone could do it.

I said that was not true - and as every year progresses, ...

a) you recounted tales from Benfica in the early sixties (when football was very different) and Porto in the eighties (when the economics were very different) ... accept he might actually be a very good manager.

to add a wee bit. In part clubs rise and decline historically according to their base wealth. Look at the clubs that dominated English football before WW2 (and to a lesser extent into the 1950s). Also,the local recruitment pool used to be much more important - the Celtic team that won the European Cup in 1967 were all born in or very close to Glasgow - an unthinkable basis for a club today. I agree with Warspite1, the new financial basis for buying success is so different to the situation -even in the 1990s- that any comparisons are of limited value.

As to Mourinho. Well I do not like the man or the style of football he prefers. Its noticeable that any league he manages in becomes a grubbier nastier place while he is there. Equally clearly he exhausts players with his constant search for enemies within and without. His latest attacks on injured Man Utd players in the press are the latest part of this.

But he has been very successful with his approach. While he clearly has a basic template I think he was probably the first manager to seriously coach how to shift from defend - attack as the ball or wider control was gained or lost. This is now pretty standard - Spurs are actually one of the best sides in the EPL at this type of game control - but credit to the person who systemised it. Equally, while I think the new models of football - pressing etc - seem to have passed him by (or he is not convinced?), he remains the master of the one-off tactical approach to a specific game. So yes he'll stick Eto'o at full back if he thinks that is what is needed, or have Herrera follow Hazard across the pitch etc.

So to me, nasty piece of work but can't argue that he has been one of the modern games' great managers.

On a more cheery note, I can't get over just how gutsy this Spurs side have become. I still do not think that Chelsea will lose the title - after all they would have to drop pts in the 2/5 games remaining and Spurs would still have to win them all, but last night vs Palace was something else in terms of determination and ability to impose themselves on the game.
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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus




Unless you're ready to swap positions, of course. But you were not talking about the poor gunners eh...
warspite1

....
You won't accept that Mourinho is a great manager. Therefore your argument is that there was nothing special about Porto winning the Champions League - effectively that anyone could do it.

I said that was not true - and as every year progresses, ...

a) you recounted tales from Benfica in the early sixties (when football was very different) and Porto in the eighties (when the economics were very different) ... accept he might actually be a very good manager.

to add a wee bit. In part clubs rise and decline historically according to their base wealth. Look at the clubs that dominated English football before WW2 (and to a lesser extent into the 1950s). Also,the local recruitment pool used to be much more important - the Celtic team that won the European Cup in 1967 were all born in or very close to Glasgow - an unthinkable basis for a club today. I agree with Warspite1, the new financial basis for buying success is so different to the situation -even in the 1990s- that any comparisons are of limited value.

As to Mourinho. Well I do not like the man or the style of football he prefers. Its noticeable that any league he manages in becomes a grubbier nastier place while he is there. Equally clearly he exhausts players with his constant search for enemies within and without. His latest attacks on injured Man Utd players in the press are the latest part of this.

But he has been very successful with his approach. While he clearly has a basic template I think he was probably the first manager to seriously coach how to shift from defend - attack as the ball or wider control was gained or lost. This is now pretty standard - Spurs are actually one of the best sides in the EPL at this type of game control - but credit to the person who systemised it. Equally, while I think the new models of football - pressing etc - seem to have passed him by (or he is not convinced?), he remains the master of the one-off tactical approach to a specific game. So yes he'll stick Eto'o at full back if he thinks that is what is needed, or have Herrera follow Hazard across the pitch etc.

So to me, nasty piece of work but can't argue that he has been one of the modern games' great managers.
warspite1

There is a saying in sport - nice guys don't win. As I have said before on this thread, the fact I defend Mourinho's achievements does not mean I like his behaviour. But then I didn't like Ferguson's aggressiveness toward officials and his intimidation of weaker characters (Fergie time anybody?) I don't like Wenger's (I never saw the incident - unless it was in his interests to see it - and how many unsavoury dust ups on the halfway line has Wenger had with other managers?). Nice guys? I don't think so - successful managers? Oh yes. Just like Mourinho.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: All things Football (soccer) related

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus




Unless you're ready to swap positions, of course. But you were not talking about the poor gunners eh...
warspite1

....
You won't accept that Mourinho is a great manager. Therefore your argument is that there was nothing special about Porto winning the Champions League - effectively that anyone could do it.

I said that was not true - and as every year progresses, ...

a) you recounted tales from Benfica in the early sixties (when football was very different) and Porto in the eighties (when the economics were very different) ... accept he might actually be a very good manager.

On a more cheery note, I can't get over just how gutsy this Spurs side have become. I still do not think that Chelsea will lose the title - after all they would have to drop pts in the 2/5 games remaining and Spurs would still have to win them all, but last night vs Palace was something else in terms of determination and ability to impose themselves on the game.
warspite1

That was a surprise. Yes, given who each have still to play (and we have Arsenal, West Ham and Manchester United) the title is Chelsea's. However that result helped massively in our quest for a CL spot. What was pleasing was that after the tactical debacle on Saturday, Poch got his tactics right second half.

On a less good note, Walker may be complaining about being left out on Saturday, but frankly he is not playing well at the moment, not well at all....
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
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