Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Share your gameplay tips, secret tactics and fabulous strategies with fellow gamers here.

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

User avatar
Lokasenna
Posts: 9303
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:57 am
Location: Iowan in MD/DC

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

Let me clarify one last time, and then I am done with this thread. I discovered an exploit in the game. I wanted to notify the WiTP community that this exploit exists. Did I use this exploit? No. Would I use this exploit? No. I am simply trying to be honest. You can shoot holes in the messenger all that you want, but it does not change the message or the facts. The exploit exists. Period. Now, I am finished discussing it.

I'm not shooting holes in the messenger, I'm pointing out that the message is incorrect. The exploit does not exist. You can't just reload the turn the Allied player sends to you over and over until you get results that you like. This applies to every turn in the game, not just the first turn.

I'm glad you're finished trumpeting the falsehood; thank you.

I'm also glad you're here and playing the game (I think you're relatively new here, yes?), I just want to make sure that everybody knows there's nothing here that's an exploit and this is arising from a slight misunderstanding of how loading turns works combined with an extreme result on the Pearl Harbor attack.
spence
Posts: 5419
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:56 am
Location: Vancouver, Washington

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by spence »

If you did run those tests on those same settings as the game you are questioning, did you at least bother to compare the results of PH attack to those you are disputing? How do they differ? Do you understand that you are calling someone a cheater here with no shred of evidence not so ever! Even if you did discover an exploit, which is up to Matrix team to decide if it's real, there is no proof that this exploit was even used in this game or any other for that matter. You even stated yourself that you NEVER played a game with December 7 surprise on. How can you be sure that this IS NOT the usual outcome you get with those settings on? How about test this hypothesis on, let's say 10 different openings? I did it on two occasions and both were pretty brutal in terms of torpedo hits on ships in PH. As far as I'm concerned this is standard result you get with playing on those exact settings we did until someone proves me otherwise. And what I can claim with 100% certainty is that no exploit was used here and that result was 100% genuine!

The point really is is that the HISTORICAL 1st TURN is a complete misnomer having very little, in fact practically nothing to to with the historically documented results of Japan's gamble. In the game, the Japanese "gamble" anything but a gamble. The various attributes emphasized by the game pretty much assure that the Japanese Player can have some fun for a bit. The biggest problem in the game is that in far more cases than not, when the Japanese Players "fun" disappears so does the Japanese Player (as it stands now the Japanese Player who hangs around thru 1943-1945 gets to suffer through endless turns (only a thousand or so really) where he gets to spend a hundred planes a turn to damage an AK and a DE and starts to think of the sinking of a CVE as a decisive victory.
Given the advantage of hindsight and complete knowledge of how statistically screwed the Allies are by the game system a basic game that ended around the end of 1943 which required both sides to do better than historically (VP wise) would be a much better contest.
Itdepends
Posts: 937
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:59 am

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by Itdepends »

If the seed is set as Bill says when the scenario is selected then you could use this to exploit/cheat turn one without the Allied players help.

1.Select scenario
2.Save japanes password and then copy the save game file
3. Open original file. Save dummy allied password (as Japanese player)
4. Open file as Japanese and run combat replay.

If you don.t like the result start from step 1. If you do like the result, use the copy of th file you saved at step 2 for all your future opponents.

I.e. This assumes the historical first turn outcome is set once the seed is set when selecting the scenario (which is what Bill implied)
woods
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:31 pm

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by woods »

Just let the Japanese player have the 8 old battlewagons. No big deal. Come 1944 will be payback time.
Image
Art by Rougeusmc
Alpha77
Posts: 2149
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:38 am

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by Alpha77 »

Suggest better stop the game in question if you guys do no trust each other a bit....later more problems will develope I sense.

And who in his right mind,would run a first turn 10x to get the best results. [:D] Even if it was possible...[>:]
User avatar
Jorge_Stanbury
Posts: 4345
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:57 pm
Location: Montreal

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

3. Open original file. Save dummy allied password (as Japanese player)

Buy this assumes that the Allied player will accept the Japanese player setting the first password... Very sketchy... I mean I really like my 2 opponents but I would never accept this
User avatar
PaxMondo
Posts: 9796
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:23 pm

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury
ORIGINAL: Itdepends

3. Open original file. Save dummy allied password (as Japanese player)

Buy this assumes that the Allied player will accept the Japanese player setting the first password... Very sketchy... I mean I really like my 2 opponents but I would never accept this
Correct.

There is no cheat here ...
Pax
User avatar
BillBrown
Posts: 2335
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 3:55 am

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by BillBrown »

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

If the seed is set as Bill says when the scenario is selected then you could use this to exploit/cheat turn one without the Allied players help.

1.Select scenario
2.Save japanes password and then copy the save game file
3. Open original file. Save dummy allied password (as Japanese player)
4. Open file as Japanese and run combat replay.

If you don.t like the result start from step 1. If you do like the result, use the copy of th file you saved at step 2 for all your future opponents.

I.e. This assumes the historical first turn outcome is set once the seed is set when selecting the scenario (which is what Bill implied)

Apparently most people are not reading the entire post. As the bolded portions states, you use the saved copy not the one you use for the test.
User avatar
Jorge_Stanbury
Posts: 4345
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:57 pm
Location: Montreal

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

No you won't see the result until the end which is step 4

You cannot start the process again unless you know the Allied password. You will need to find an Allied player that accepts that you, the Japanese player, are providing the allied password for the 1st turn. There's no such thing as a dummy password there's only one password for Japan and one for the Allies.
User avatar
Jorge_Stanbury
Posts: 4345
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:57 pm
Location: Montreal

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

Process is (historical turn):

-Japanese player saves his password (turn orders already set automatically)
-Japanese player sends turn to Allied player
-Allied player saves his password (turn orders already set automatically)
-Allied player sends turn to Japanese player.
- Japanese player saves the turn results.
-Japanese player run the turn and gets access to the turn and combat replay
paradigmblue
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:44 pm
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by paradigmblue »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury
ORIGINAL: Itdepends

3. Open original file. Save dummy allied password (as Japanese player)

Buy this assumes that the Allied player will accept the Japanese player setting the first password... Very sketchy... I mean I really like my 2 opponents but I would never accept this
Correct.

There is no cheat here ...

The Allied player would never know. Aurorus is right about the issue with the Japanese player being able to game the start.

Sequence of events:

Japanese player creates game, sets password and saves file in slot "A".

Japanese player opens that save file and enters an "allied" pw, then saves it in slot "B".

Japanese player than opens save that is in slot B, and views the turn. If it's not an outcome they like, they simply go back to step 1, starting a new PBEM in slot A.

Once the Japanese player finds a 1st turn outcome they like, they then send the save in "slot A", which has not received an allied PW yet, to the allied player. Because they are saving game save "A" in a different slot whenever they created the spoof allied PW, the slot A save remains in a state where it is ready for the allied player to enter their password, and the allied player would never know that it had been viewed.

Some Caveats

One: "Historical First Turn" slots always have ahistorical outcomes, with far more damage at Pearl Harbor than with a standard, Dec. 7th surprise start. I don't find Aurorus's first turn losses to really be outside of what you usually expect with the Historical First Turn. Every time I've tested the historical turn it delivers similar results, without the need to game the system to achieve them.

Two: As such, while gaming the system is possible, as demonstrated above, the result that Aurorus saw in his game doesn't show any evidence that wrong-doing occurred, and is instead simply can be attributed to the game settings used, which always give a similar result.






paradigmblue
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:44 pm
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by paradigmblue »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Process is (historical turn):

-Japanese player saves his password (turn orders already set automatically)
-Japanese player sends turn to Allied player
-Allied player saves his password (turn orders already set automatically)
-Allied player sends turn to Japanese player.
- Japanese player saves the turn results.
-Japanese player run the turn and gets access to the turn and combat replay

Process is (historical turn): (Correct me if I'm wrong here Aurorus)
-Japanese player saves his password (run orders already set automatically) in slot A
-Japanese player, instead of sending the turn to the Allied player, opens it
-Japanese player sets a "spoof" password, and saves the game in slot B (turn orders already set automatically)
-Japanese player opens up the game in slot B, saves the turn results, and views them
-If Japanese likes the results, they send the save that is in slot A, which is still waiting for the allied PW as far as that save is concerned
-If Japan does not like the outcome, they create a new PBEM game in slot A and rinse and repeat.
User avatar
Jorge_Stanbury
Posts: 4345
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:57 pm
Location: Montreal

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

But you are assuming that the turn gets resolved without the 2nd allied input.

But I understand know what you are saying. Still better to hear from moderators or developers
paradigmblue
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:44 pm
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by paradigmblue »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

But you are assuming that the turn gets resolved without the 2nd allied input.

What do you mean by 2nd allied input?
ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury
Still better to hear from moderators or developers

Agreed.
User avatar
Yaab
Posts: 5041
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:09 pm
Location: Poland

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by Yaab »

Aren't Allied players happy when those legacy SUVs (old BBs) are all gone? The war will not be decided by BB Arizona's valiant efforts in the Coral Sea anyway.
paradigmblue
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:44 pm
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by paradigmblue »

ORIGINAL: paradigmblue

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury



Buy this assumes that the Allied player will accept the Japanese player setting the first password... Very sketchy... I mean I really like my 2 opponents but I would never accept this
Correct.

There is no cheat here ...

The Allied player would never know. [s]Aurorus is right about the issue with the Japanese player being able to game the start.[/s] I'm going to walk this back a bit: If the Historical First Turn RNG results are set by the first turn Japanese save, then I'm pretty sure that Aurorus is right and there is a way for the Japanese player to be able to game the start.

Sequence of events:

Japanese player creates game, sets password and saves file in slot "A".

Japanese player opens that save file and enters an "allied" pw, then saves it in slot "B".

Japanese player than opens save that is in slot B, and views the turn. If it's not an outcome they like, they simply go back to step 1, starting a new PBEM in slot A.

Once the Japanese player finds a 1st turn outcome they like, they then send the save in "slot A", which has not received an allied PW yet, to the allied player. Because they are saving game save "A" in a different slot whenever they created the spoof allied PW, the slot A save remains in a state where it is ready for the allied player to enter their password, and the allied player would never know that it had been viewed.

Some Caveats

One: "Historical First Turn" slots always have ahistorical outcomes, with far more damage at Pearl Harbor than with a standard, Dec. 7th surprise start. I don't find Aurorus's first turn losses to really be outside of what you usually expect with the Historical First Turn. Every time I've tested the historical turn it delivers similar results, without the need to game the system to achieve them.

Two: As such, while gaming the system is possible, as demonstrated above, the result that Aurorus saw in his game doesn't show any evidence that wrong-doing occurred, and is instead simply can be attributed to the game settings used, which always give a similar result.

Whoops, meant to edit my post, not quote it.

I wanted to walk my statement back a bit - I don't know enough about how the RNG works and *when* the values are determined to make any declarative statements. From what I can see, Aurorus could very well be right about the potential for exploit, *if* the turn outcome is set as soon as the Japenese player creates the game with a historical start, (and if the historical first turn is sufficiently variable - are there wildly different outcomes for different historical first turns that would make this gaming of the system "worthwhile" for a potential exploiter?)

As Jorge says, I should probably shut up until we hear something from a dev.
User avatar
Quixote
Posts: 774
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Maryland

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by Quixote »

Aurorus is correct about the potential exploit. Instead of arguing back and forth about what should happen when starting a new game with the same Japanese seed turn, try actually doing it. I did, and the result of the same Japanese seed turn, when sent to two Allied opponents with completely different passwords, was two exactly identical turns. These weren't similar results or close results factoring in fog of war, they were identical. Each Allied player lost exactly the same ships, exactly the same number of aircraft, and suffered exactly the same amount of damage to each and every ship hit. The experiment is easily repeatable if you care to try.

Note that this potential exploit only applies to Historical Dec 7th starts, and still may not mean his opponent was knowingly cheating. It's certainly possible his opponent simply re-used an already prepared first turn without knowing about the exploit (since none of the veteran players here seemed to know about it either), but Aurorus isn't crazy to have at least considered the possibility.
Buckrock
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:10 am
Location: Not all there

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by Buckrock »

Makes sense. With no player inputs, for a given start, the same randoms should align with the same events each time.
This was the only sig line I could think of.
User avatar
PaxMondo
Posts: 9796
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:23 pm

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: Quixote

Aurorus is correct about the potential exploit. Instead of arguing back and forth about what should happen when starting a new game with the same Japanese seed turn, try actually doing it. I did, and the result of the same Japanese seed turn, when sent to two Allied opponents with completely different passwords, was two exactly identical turns. These weren't similar results or close results factoring in fog of war, they were identical. Each Allied player lost exactly the same ships, exactly the same number of aircraft, and suffered exactly the same amount of damage to each and every ship hit. The experiment is easily repeatable if you care to try.

Note that this potential exploit only applies to Historical Dec 7th starts, and still may not mean his opponent was knowingly cheating. It's certainly possible his opponent simply re-used an already prepared first turn without knowing about the exploit (since none of the veteran players here seemed to know about it either), but Aurorus isn't crazy to have at least considered the possibility.
It requires you to set the allied password, which is breaking the process.

I'm sorry, that's not a cheat. that's not following the process and the allied player allowing the IJ player a free turn. since both players are involved, kinda hard to call it a cheat.

Is it a cheat if the allied player sends the IJ player his password? The whole security is predicated around the fact that the players have passwords so the other cannot input the other side turns. This technique will work for any turn in any game; if the IJ player has the allied password, you can rerun turns. I think that is called "Head-2-Head. [:D]
Pax
User avatar
tomamars
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:35 am
Location: Croatia

RE: Cheating and Historical Turn 1

Post by tomamars »

Way out of this mess is rather simple one. How long does it take for IJ player to create first sav game with those settings and send it to Allies? 1 min? And how long does it take to view results of the 1-st turn? 30 min? How about 10 1-st turns to choose from one of your liking? 5 hours? So solution is rather simple, all allied player needs to do is to observe if file IJ player sent him was ACTUALLY created few minutes ago or few days (or months) ago. Even if an exploit was indeed possible, there is a simple way to counter it by just paying attention.
Post Reply

Return to “The War Room”