Kicking An Idea Around

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Big B

I just wanted to say - Gary, I love what you are doing here, fresh map and a new game!
I really hope you can tailor it to work well with the game engine.... keep up the good work!


B

Many thanks, Brian!

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

How about if I staggered reinforcements for both sides, started both sides with a minimal token force and then recommended players to use "variable +/- 60 days" for their reinforcement queues. That way both sides would need to wait for their forces to accumulate and the variable time scale would mean that neither one would know when the other will receive certain units. Meanwhile, while their forces are building, they would still need to try to conquer or hold various bases throughout the map.

The 60 day variability can be quite unforgiving; I think it would be better if you sat down and worked out a timeline of escalation.

For example:

- The French rush reinforcements into the combat zone in the first few weeks in dribs and drabs.
- The German initial response force arrives in one concentrated body after a months delay.
- French escalate further, sending heavier assets
- etc etc

Part of what made the Guadalcanal scenario really interesting was the force disparity initially - the US have the CV advantage at first, so the IJN has to accommodate that in their planning, then the IJN CV force arrives, changing the balance of power.

As others have noted, this is the stuff you'll need to think about if you don't want it turning into a Jutland style "throw everything at 'em" battle.

A further argument against variable reinforcements is that you can't get cute with unit arrival dates. How about mildly powerful colonial militia units arriving 120 days into the scenario to encourage the faction on the offensive to take as much as possible in the opening months?

I think, before we go any further, you'd need to sit down and actually think about the background. Warspite was on to something when he brought it up. You need some framing to help to make decisions regarding force allocation and other things, but it doesn't need to be super-detailed.

I'd suggest the colonial struggle backstory for a few reasons:
- Allows some suspension of disbelief.
- Limits the scope of ground engagements to a moderate size (massive given how weak AE's ground combat engine is)
- Provides an interesting and authentic sandbox for the use of naval auxiliaries (few well developed ports)
- Solid goal-oriented gameplay with variable win conditions (rather than "see how many ships I can sink")

[GaryChildress]

Orange ovals indicate where the main resource locations would be. If a side gets knocked out of the middle, then there would still be some flow of resources from the alternate islands in the northwest and southeast.

The advantage is that with so many places to protect or capture, neither side would know where the other is going to be. So a kitchen sink approach might be of limited value. If I throw the kitchen sink into the middle and the other side decides to raid my secondary resource area, then the kitchen sink won't work.

[GaryChildress]

I could do something like this:

Both sides would need to go to the opposite end of the map to get to their main resources and the middle and sides would be strung with dot bases and just a few developed bases.

[cardas]

You might also want to consider the positives with the changing strengths that is inherent in WitP. With the standard game even if you get some bad RNG rolls in ships combat/carrier combat you can still keep an offensive going in the early game as the Japanese. Well, barring some extremely disastrous battle where you manage to get every single carrier you have sunk. Same with the Allied forces later in the game.

With balanced starting forces you are much more likely to get a rather nasty snowball effect where the early results can make any comeback pretty much impossible short of a miracle. Also remember that there are hidden modifiers in the game (Allied AA improvements as time goes one) and different mechanics (production mechanics available to the Japanese side, not to the Allied side).

I'll add my agreement with mind_messing as well.


On an off-topic note thanks for the ship/aircraft art you've done. I eventually plan to make use of it for my mod, but well, you know how it goes. It takes time to make a mod and you run the risk of getting tired of doing it, so who knows if the mod will ever see the light of day.

[DOCUP]

I like the idea for nice quick games. You could also add the RN vs Germany, France vs Italy or whatever 2 countries a person wanted to mod it for. Nice quick game with a few possibilities.

[mind_messing]

No, I think the original idea that you had - of the central island as the focal point - is the best, and will make for some really interesting gameplay. Guadalcanal writ large.

The additional islands to the NW and SE are perfect as the respective resource dumps for both factions, but require hauling back to the main bases to be processed. This will offer a great deal of strategic flexibility. Overemphasis on the central island could expose these key resources areas to attack.

[GaryChildress]

I'll stick to the original map, then.

Have another idea which may reduce the possibility of any Jutlands (at least early in the game). What I could do is make resources/supplies very scarce in the beginning for both sides. There would be a couple of developed resource bases early on from which to draw supplies, but most of the resource centers I could leave undeveloped at first. Then it would be up to the players to send engineers to develop the bases so that resources can be more readily exploited and after a while enough resources could conceivably be developed and accumulated to wage larger scale operations.

Massive reinforcements, then, wouldn't start arriving until maybe a couple months into the game. I plan on making the scenario just a year in length, 365 turns.

[warspite1]

I don't think you need to worry about a 'Jutland'* with such a back story as I suggested and which has been neatly expanded upon by mind_messing i.e. the Guadalcanal type scenario. The reason being that if you are playing a year long game and you are varying at start forces, you cannot guarantee your fleet will be strong enough at all times to take on the enemy.

In addition the fact that ships can only stay at sea for a certain length of time adds to the need to manage deployment (of course the Germans have their Dithmarschen-class supply ships - but the French will be on the look out for these with their submarines).

A third important variable to keep replayability alive (and a real challenge for the player) is the weather. Make the weather really variable so that an assault on the island may/may not be possible at any given time.

Given the limited time on station, you need to read the weather forecast to ensure you don't waste your time launching an invasion fleet that cannot actually undertake the landing!

Another variable to ensure you need to manage your forces is to have convoys in the top left and bottom right. These are convoys from off map to the main bases. Reinforcement troops, aircraft, naval reinforcements etc have to get to the main bases first. These convoy routes need protecting too.

*Having said that of course, Jutland developed from a battlecruiser encounter, and some games here may see strategies evolve into what becomes an almighty fleet enounter - no problem with that once in a while [:)]. There is still plenty of fun in that - its just you don't want it to be the only game plan.

[DOCUP]

Hows it coming?

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Hows it coming?

Hi DOCUP,

Haven't really worked on it in a couple weeks. Been too busy with other games. Also waiting for RyanCrierie to finish with his MapGen program so I can work on the PWHex with it.

[DOCUP]

You said you where putting all of Plan Z ships in. What French ships are you going to add, besides the normal ones that happened in real life?

[GaryChildress]

Here's a list of ships I've come up with so far. Haven't done DDs or below yet, though.

In an effort to create some degree of parity I've listed German ships and next to them somewhat comparable French ships. I may not give the Germans their full compliment of Spahkreuzers because I haven't come up with anything (yet) to offset them.

The Amiral class BCs are based on some drawings I saw of some (modernized) BC designs proposed during WW1.

[GaryChildress]

The color codes are for when I had them projected to enter the game:

Blue = starting forces
green = 1st quarter
yellow = 2nd quarter
orange = 3rd quarter
red = 4th quarter

I figure on setting the scenario to last 365 days.

[GaryChildress]

Here's a pic of some of the new French designs:

[CaptBeefheart]

Very interesting, Gary. Keep up the good work.

Cheers,
CC

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

Very interesting, Gary. Keep up the good work.

Cheers,
CC

Much thanks, Commander Cody.

[CaptBeefheart]

This is such a great game engine, I was thinking sandbox applications (like this) would be the next logical step in development.

Cheers,
CC

[DOCUP]

I like it Gary.

[RyanCrierie]

Gary,

May I suggest breaking up the Graf Zeppelin design into perhaps two blocks:

Original Graf Zeppelin, and a Graf Zeppelin Block II; with slightly more aircraft capacity; as the Germans "figure out" carrier operations?