Off to see the lizard.....

[witpqs]

- I personally think "No CV hunting on Turn 1" is sufficient for that.

- Any TF that is already formed you should be able to give orders to. For example, I change Force Z's orders to preserve it.

- I don't change the CAP settings of any groups that could possibly be engaged. I fell it would violate my take on First Turn Surprise. Same for other mission orders of groups that might cross paths with the enemy.

- I do change non-combat orders for groups that can't contact the enemy to get groups training, But no transferring groups from their starting base. There are so many things for the Allied player to do at game start that I try to split them between turns 1 and 2. This I can do on turn 1 without harm Forming a billion convoys with civilian ships that must head to either safety or useful places waits until turn 2.

- I do not form any new TF.

- I issue all kinds of LCU and base orders, but not movement nor changing posture of any that might be attacked on turn 1 (I don't think there are any cases where that is relevant anyway). Again just splitting the load before sustaining repetitive stress injuries to my mouse hand on turn 2. [:D]

After turn 1:

- I self limit night bombing. City Manpower target is the exception. That exception not really relevant until historically correct anyway.

- I use single ship TF as appropriate for situation but never to game AE's code.

- Pay PP to cross borders with agreed exceptions. List of good exceptions are available.

If I think of more I will post again.

Notably, no HR on bombing altitudes or targets or fighter sweeps. There are counters and in the game periods when they don't work so well, it's because that's the reality that the game engine is doing a good job of portraying.

[Lecivius]

This is a No Holds Barred kind of game. I like witpqs's thoughts, as well as the notion of If It Feels Gamey, It Probably Is. The only other consideration is where you can land troops,as far as I can tell. Other than that, take off the gloves and do your best to kick his kiester [8D] If nothing else, it will help your composer after the longest start in AAR history [;)]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

This is a No Holds Barred kind of game. I like witpqs's thoughts, as well as the notion of If It Feels Gamey, It Probably Is. The only other consideration is where you can land troops,as far as I can tell. Other than that, take off the gloves and do your best to kick his kiester [8D] If nothing else, it will help your composer after the longest start in AAR history [;)]

Forgot that one. We specifically excluded a house rule against non-base landings. Non-base landings are OK in my book. The penalties in-game are real and allowing them adds more flavor and (dare I say) realism to a PBM.

[BillBrown]

No house rule means no house rules. You are free to do what you want to do. That does not mean you have to do every possible thing that can be done.
You will need to make up your mind about what you want to do. There is a huge number of things you can do that many will yell "gamey" about, but
again, no house rules. Even with my games that have no house rules I usually have some agreement about turn 1 limits. Plus I have my own self limiting
rules that I adhere to.

Bottom line is, it is your game and your call on what you will do.

[Bullwinkle58]

As the recipient of having the Sara sunk at the pier before I even inserted any orders, I would put this one in a special case. NB: before I entered ANY orders. To me it's not an HR issue if the game hasn't really begun yet.

In that case I didn't say anything because I had agreed to no HRs, but it poisoned the game for me. When it ended my opponent was surprised I hadn't said anything if it steamed me.

I'm one of the original "no HR" proponents, but after four PBEM games now I think Turn 1 is a special case. In my last we did the standard TF ones, etc., but agreed any nation already at war with Japan on 12/7 could do anything they wished.

I also disagree with the border PP HR unless the Allied PP budget is increased. Maybe 10/day. We tried to do this, but he already had a Turn 1 in the box and we didn't succeed. So we stayed at 50/day and no border HR. I did commit to not buy out Allied units to Air HQs.

Live and learn.

[AW1Steve]

I've got to agree with many of the suggestions here. The paying points before moving troops I've always automatically done , so I hadn't even thought about that one. Basically the only two moves that I see that would cause friction would be creating TF's for escape purposes, and setting CAP . While I understand those rules , they generally are applied to games that have , well HOUSE RULES. There's the rub. Japan's holding all the cards. The only two things I'd like to do are in fact DEFENSIVE in nature. Yet I'm prohibited from doing them.

My hero in the Pacific war is Admiral James Otto Richardson. Ever hear of him? He's the "might have been a hero" guy. To me he WAS a hero. He did the most daring thing any American Naval commander ever did. He basically told Roosevelt that POTUS was being an idiot. And Roosevelt fired him. And deep selected the most junior Admiral on the list because he knew that he wouldn't give POTUS any lip. That was Husband Kimmel (Nimitz was offered the job and said HELL NO! , Send me to the bureau of personnel.

Here's what Richardson would have done (and did do while he was CINCUS). Everything that can fly, flies. PBY's need training. So they trained by flying patrols. Fighters trained by flying CAP. 1/2 of the ships were at sea or in other ports at all times. The fleet would be moved back to San Pedro. Ships would get maximum sea time. Repairs and training were to be done on the west coast. Ships at PH were while not on full alert, were always at a more alert condition.

One of the choices to replace Kimmel with was RADM Patrick Bellenger. Of the Martin/Bellinger report fame. The two guys that pretty much nailed it on predicting what the Japanese were going to do. So ,if I can't have Richardson back , I could place Bellinger in Kimmels place. Not only was Bellenger a friend and protégé of Richardson , he was one of the USN's most experienced Naval Aviators. I'm positive that he'd have a more active posture on defense measures since he wrote the book on it (half of it anyway) and he was pretty much ignored.

So the way I'm thinking , if my very 1st step was to replace Kimmel with Bellenger , CAP improvements would be made , and PH at least would be on a much stronger footing. Whaddya think sirs? [&:][:)]

[AW1Steve]

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/misc/martin_2.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/hart/xha-004.html

NAVAL BASE DEFENSE AIR FORCE OPERATION PLAN No. A-1-41, dated February 27, 1941.

This report includes the following estimate:

++++++

(a) Relations between the United States and Orange are strained, uncertain, and varying.

[556‑e] (b) In the past Orange has never preceded hostile actions by a declaration of war.

© A successful, sudden raid, against our ships and Naval installations on Oahu might prevent effective offensive action by our forces in the Western Pacific for a long period.

(d) A strong part of our fleet is now constantly at sea in the operating areas organized to take prompt offensive action against any surface or submarine force which initiates hostile action.

(e) It appears possible that Orange submarines and/or an Orange fast raiding force might arrive in Hawaiian waters with no prior warning from our intelligence service

+++++++

PACIFIC FLEET CONFIDENTIAL LETTER NO. 2CL-41 (REVISED), dated October 14, 1941.

This report opens with:

(a) That no responsible foreign power will provoke war, under present existing conditions, by attack on the Fleet or Base, but that irresponsible and misguided nationals of such powers may attempt

++++++++

(1) sabotage, on ships based in Pearl Harbor, from small craft.
(2) to block the entrance to Pearl Harbor by sinking an obstruction
in the Channel.
(3) to lay magnetic or other mines in the approaches to Pearl
Harbor.

(b) That a declaration of war may be preceded by;

(1) a surprise attack on ships in Pearl Harbor,
(2) a surprise submarine attack on ships in operating area,
(3) a combination of these two.

++++++++
See my point. It's not just about admin/inspiration/aggressiveness ratings. It's about personalities. [:)]

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Whaddya think sirs? [&:][:)]

I think you have WAY to much free time on your hands for research [:'(][;)][:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Whaddya think sirs? [&:][:)]

I think you have WAY to much free time on your hands for research [:'(][;)][:D]

I'm a retired squid who used to work for several different Naval/military museums doing research. I could no more stop doing research than I could stop breathing. [:D] But I've done quite a bit of research on Plan Orange , Plan Dog , military and Naval theory and thinking at the time of PH. I find it both amazing and fascinating how the command decisions on Dec 7th shook out. It's almost as if Kimmel and Short were chosen for their abilities NOT to do the job. Both were talented , long serving good officers who would have done magnificent in other jobs. But their talents led in other fields. And neither had any real understanding of what airplanes , particularly Naval air could do. But each had one of the two pest and most qualified people in the service to advise them. And they were ignored. [:(]

[AW1Steve]

A Few Thoughts on "The Gorn Game"


My normal approach is either a traditional or modified "Sir Robin". Reading Geoff previous AAR makes me hesitate. While to me it's absolutely imperitive to save every single available ship that can be upgraded or converted, his tendency to make deep swarths behind the line with CV based and LBA aircraft makes me think I should hesitate somewhat. The Manila ships can make a dash toward Balipikan under the cover of all PI based fighter aircraft (making coverage of those escaping ships their sole duty and mission). Dutch aircraft can stage to Balipikan to cover the southern part of the retreat. B-17's and one PBY squadron can provide some patrol coverage.

The Hong Kong based ships , and Manila AKL's have little chance in convoy , so those ships will all sail as singletons. The Hong Kong DD's will race as singletons to Balipikan. All Brit ships from Singapore will sorte en masse to Batavia , where they will join up with Dutch units. They will continue with everything else they can sweep up to Soejabaya , where hopefully the American surface ships can join them. At that point everything that I have still afloat will be formed up according to capabilities , speed and mission. Some will go to Perth (the ships going to the Indian ocean) , Brisbane or Sydney (those headed for the USA) or southern Oz ports (those ships that can be converted locally then employed to the South West Pacific (Primaily minesweepers converted to AVP's and DD's to be converted to AVD's....DD's that will be converted to APD's will escort ships headed to the east coast and be converted there).

I don't intend to send any US CA's to a blazing end. I need them all. Boise will join the other Brooklyn's as they were originally designed, defending battleships as destroyer killers. I find that using them and heavily gunned US DD's like the Porters give American old BB's a fighting chance. Not to go looking for the Jap battleline , but to survive bombardment runs where they unexpectedly collide with LYB's DD's and cruisers.

Houston , like most of the US CA's will guard the CV's till fast battleships and CLAA's show up...and then some. And even the old Omaha class CL ("scout cruisers") are excellent convoy protection against raiders (AMC's). And the four piper DD's are incredibly valuable for conversions. For the the 1st 4 months or so they are the best ASW ships the USN has. And fast AVD's allow you to send your PBY's to be based on little rocks in the middle of nowhere , able to runaway when the KB comes calling.

Dutch CL's are expendable. Their DD's are definately worth saving , So unless I absolutely have to expend them, CL will act as DD squadron leaders and use their longer legs to extend the Dutch DD's. Brit DD's are a mixed lot , some pretty good , others older WW1 surplus. But all are usefull. C and D CL's are mostly best used as convoy escorts , but Brit and Oz Leader class and some of the modern CL's anr quite usefull. Obviously POW and Repluse are best used for CV escorts. Or , lacking them , as "Short stops" in the Indian ocean under LBA. Definately these two need to be evacuated ASAP.

Fast AP's (17-31 kts) need to be evacuated , then combined with similar ships of the same speed for fast troop convoy groups , to haul large units on long, relatively safe hauls. CL's, and fast long legged DD's will provide escorts (with the occassional old transiting BB) on routes well distant from anywhere that the KB might venture. (Think USA to Sydney ..or better yet Melbourne).

So pretty much all of my plan depends on how agressive Geoff is. Obviously nothing moves the 1st turn , but on the 2nd either everything will hunker down in port or be off like a salmon off the bottom. Everything depends on Geoff.

In his other previous AAR he has a tendency to OVER use his KB and Baby KB. Those ships are everywhere for the 1st 6 months with almost no downtime for repair. He makes deep slashing penetrations , landing troops well to my rear , trying to cut off escape routes. The downside is that he ignored the DEI , Java , and much of the PI . In one of the AAR those places are still in allied hands as late as August 1942. Even Palembang was ignored. If he's willing to ignore the places that he alledgely went to war to posses, then I'm pretty sure that I can take advantage of that.

Geoff appear to be different than many JFB's in that he seems to understand to some degree just how desperate he is for maritime patrol aircraft. He doesn't seem to hesitate to use his Nell's and Betties for patrol . And he likes to layout his sub fleet in long picket lines , every fourth sub being aircraft carrying , usually well outside of allied MPA scouting range. Basically he tries to do the German ww2 tactic of the "mid ocean gap". While my ability to counter this early in the war is very limited , I'll need to be very much mindful of it.

Early in the war even the allies are short of MPA aircraft. And I belive STRONGLY in setting up interconnecting PBY "picket islands" which form a "fence" that even his subs have a hard time getting through. Normally I employ all PBY's , any kind of Hudsons and Catalinas that I can in this duty. But id Geoffs case , I don't feel this will be enough. "Fragile" bombers with long range will be used to supplement them. LB-30's , B-17D's , some B-18's and maybe some Wellington's will have to augment them. As much as I like the early start of a bombing canpaign , I just don't have enough of this aircraft , the crews are too poorly trained , and they have little survival hope except as night bombers. Therefore I think they'll be best employed in keeping my ships away from the KB.


If Geoff IS slow in taking land objectives , that gives me a chance to consolidate some land units into "fortess gambits". If he gives me the chance , then I'd be foolish not to try. But they'll either walk, or possibly be air transported. I'm not risking ships , escept for the occassional AKL.

[Zorch]

Interesting. Are there any places that you would break your plan to defend?
FWIW, I have never played the campaign game.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Interesting. Are there any places that you would break your plan to defend?
FWIW, I have never played the campaign game.

I'll defend just about everywhere on land (generally by taking a stand , then withdraw, reform repeat...primarily a delaying tactic). And I'll sacrifice aircraft. But I'll try not fight his warships at sea...unless he screws up and presents me a low risk opportunity. Then I'll jump on it like a duck on a June bug.[:D]

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Interesting. Are there any places that you would break your plan to defend?
FWIW, I have never played the campaign game.

I'll defend just about everywhere on land (generally by taking a stand , then withdraw, reform repeat...primarily a delaying tactic). And I'll sacrifice aircraft. But I'll try not fight his warships at sea...unless he screws up and presents me a low risk opportunity. Then I'll jump on it like a duck on a June bug.[:D]

If he guesses your strategy, he might try a big leap forward as bait. For instance, Noumea/New Caledonia with a token force. I'm guessing you've considered this...

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Interesting. Are there any places that you would break your plan to defend?
FWIW, I have never played the campaign game.

I'll defend just about everywhere on land (generally by taking a stand , then withdraw, reform repeat...primarily a delaying tactic). And I'll sacrifice aircraft. But I'll try not fight his warships at sea...unless he screws up and presents me a low risk opportunity. Then I'll jump on it like a duck on a June bug.[:D]

If he guesses your strategy, he might try a big leap forward as bait. For instance, Noumea/New Caledonia with a token force. I'm guessing you've considered this...

Oh yea. In the early months of the war it's like a rabbit looking to ambush a tiger. While Monty Python's Holy Grail shows it can be done , I'm not expecting much. [:D]

[MakeeLearn]

Keep the rabbits underground and it can ambush the tiger. Even with the torpedo dud rate your subs will be a major asset, if only just for recon. I would be aggressive with the subs from the start.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I've got to agree with many of the suggestions here. The paying points before moving troops I've always automatically done , so I hadn't even thought about that one. Basically the only two moves that I see that would cause friction would be creating TF's for escape purposes, and setting CAP . While I understand those rules , they generally are applied to games that have , well HOUSE RULES. There's the rub. Japan's holding all the cards. The only two things I'd like to do are in fact DEFENSIVE in nature. Yet I'm prohibited from doing them.

My hero in the Pacific war is Admiral Oliver Richardson. Ever hear of him? He's the "might have been a hero" guy. To me he WAS a hero. He did the most daring thing any American Naval commander ever did. He basically told Roosevelt that POTUS was being an idiot. And Roosevelt fired him. And deep selected the most junior Admiral on the list because he knew that he wouldn't give POTUS any lip. That was Husband Kimmel (Nimitz was offered the job and said HELL NO! , Send me to the bureau of personnel.

Here's what Richardson would have done (and did do while he was CINCUS). Everything that can fly, flies. PBY's need training. So they trained by flying patrols. Fighters trained by flying CAP. 1/2 of the ships were at sea or in other ports at all times. The fleet would be moved back to San Pedro. Ships would get maximum sea time. Repairs and training were to be done on the west coast. Ships at PH were while not on full alert, were always at a more alert condition.

One of the choices to replace Kimmel with was RADM Patrick Bellenger. Of the Martin/Bellinger report fame. The two guys that pretty much nailed it on predicting what the Japanese were going to do. So ,if I can't have Richardson back , I could place Bellinger in Kimmels place. Not only was Bellenger a friend and protégé of Richardson , he was one of the USN's most experienced Naval Aviators. I'm positive that he'd have a more active posture on defense measures since he wrote the book on it (half of it anyway) and he was pretty much ignored.

So the way I'm thinking , if my very 1st step was to replace Kimmel with Bellenger , CAP improvements would be made , and PH at least would be on a much stronger footing. Whaddya think sirs? [&:][:)]

Steve, thanks for writing that - I had no idea!

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I've got to agree with many of the suggestions here. The paying points before moving troops I've always automatically done , so I hadn't even thought about that one. Basically the only two moves that I see that would cause friction would be creating TF's for escape purposes, and setting CAP . While I understand those rules , they generally are applied to games that have , well HOUSE RULES. There's the rub. Japan's holding all the cards. The only two things I'd like to do are in fact DEFENSIVE in nature. Yet I'm prohibited from doing them.

My hero in the Pacific war is Admiral Oliver Richardson. Ever hear of him? He's the "might have been a hero" guy. To me he WAS a hero. He did the most daring thing any American Naval commander ever did. He basically told Roosevelt that POTUS was being an idiot. And Roosevelt fired him. And deep selected the most junior Admiral on the list because he knew that he wouldn't give POTUS any lip. That was Husband Kimmel (Nimitz was offered the job and said HELL NO! , Send me to the bureau of personnel.

Here's what Richardson would have done (and did do while he was CINCUS). Everything that can fly, flies. PBY's need training. So they trained by flying patrols. Fighters trained by flying CAP. 1/2 of the ships were at sea or in other ports at all times. The fleet would be moved back to San Pedro. Ships would get maximum sea time. Repairs and training were to be done on the west coast. Ships at PH were while not on full alert, were always at a more alert condition.

One of the choices to replace Kimmel with was RADM Patrick Bellenger. Of the Martin/Bellinger report fame. The two guys that pretty much nailed it on predicting what the Japanese were going to do. So ,if I can't have Richardson back , I could place Bellinger in Kimmels place. Not only was Bellenger a friend and protégé of Richardson , he was one of the USN's most experienced Naval Aviators. I'm positive that he'd have a more active posture on defense measures since he wrote the book on it (half of it anyway) and he was pretty much ignored.

So the way I'm thinking , if my very 1st step was to replace Kimmel with Bellenger , CAP improvements would be made , and PH at least would be on a much stronger footing. Whaddya think sirs? [&:][:)]

Steve, thanks for writing that - I had no idea!

Me either. I always like Steve's insights.

[zuluhour]

Very interesting reading, I never heard of either of them. I have speculated more than once, the President
had every intention of being ambushed at Pearl or preferably the Philippines. The old battleship line used as
bait. If he indeed entertained this train of thought, I do not believe he foresaw the scale of damage the IJN
was capable of. What I cannot fathom is the whole MacArthur thing on Luzon. How he survived that debacle must
be wrapped in politics.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

Very interesting reading, I never heard of either of them. I have speculated more than once, the President
had every intention of being ambushed at Pearl or preferably the Philippines. The old battleship line used as
bait. If he indeed entertained this train of thought, I do not believe he foresaw the scale of damage the IJN
was capable of. What I cannot fathom is the whole MacArthur thing on Luzon. How he survived that debacle must
be wrapped in politics.

Next time you watch Tora Tora Tora , look for the two flags briefing Kimmel. Who goes off on them for the 180 B-17suggestion. That was a very small part of the report. Almost completely ignored by Kimmel. [:(]

[Canoerebel]

Ne'er mind. Beating a dead horse, don't ya know?