Spotting and Surprise!

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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by gravyface_ »

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

ORIGINAL: gravyface_

...Getting tired of moving next to a city and taking surprise damage.

Whether in the single player mode or later in a multiplayer game: If my opponent refuses to carry out an appropriate reconnaissance and thus remains unprepared next to one of my defending units, it would be more than just odd if such behavior were not punished with an immediate attack.

It's 20 miles away, brah. Unless you have a Railgun Division waiting, this is wholly inaccurate. And who's unprepared? Are you vamping right now? Jazz hands?

The point is, we're basically playing Panzer General on a big ass map; it is what it is, there's no shame in that. And if we are, let's just stick the mechanics that make sense, and that's surprise damage happens when you move into an enemy hex, not 20 miles away from it.
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crispy131313
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by crispy131313 »

I don't see a problem with the current movement rules. The surprise attack is often due to ignoring the opponent's zone of control, which would have been clearly established if FOW was off.
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by BillRunacre »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Were the Germans really surprised that the Poznan Army was in Poznan?

This question is more interesting than might first appear, as the Germans actually lost track of the location of the Poznan army during the first week of the invasion.
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by James Taylor »

You tell'em crispy! Come on guys, really? There is no hex grid on the battlefield, the location of army/corps size units is arbitrary just like real deployments are rather loose in their locations as patrols, observers and recon units fan out from the definitive lines.

There is nothing wrong with the current portrayal and Hubert's explanation of the recon move is spot on.

So sorry you guys have to click a little bit, like try playing a real monster of a wargame or use a poorly coded piece of garbage software that my company mandates.[:'(]

Not that things can't be better, but so far there doesn't seem any real suggestion to improve these mechanics.
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by TheBattlefield »

ORIGINAL: gravyface_

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

ORIGINAL: gravyface_

...Getting tired of moving next to a city and taking surprise damage.

Whether in the single player mode or later in a multiplayer game: If my opponent refuses to carry out an appropriate reconnaissance and thus remains unprepared next to one of my defending units, it would be more than just odd if such behavior were not punished with an immediate attack.

It's 20 miles away, brah. Unless you have a Railgun Division waiting, this is wholly inaccurate. And who's unprepared? Are you vamping right now? Jazz hands?

The point is, we're basically playing Panzer General on a big ass map; it is what it is, there's no shame in that. And if we are, let's just stick the mechanics that make sense, and that's surprise damage happens when you move into an enemy hex, not 20 miles away from it.
Ah. The entire game consists of attacks over one or more hex fields but after a movement in unknown terrain this rule may please, please no longer be valid. LOL.

ORIGINAL: James Taylor

You tell'em crispy! Come on guys, really? There is no hex grid on the battlefield, the location of army/corps size units is arbitrary just like real deployments are rather loose in their locations as patrols, observers and recon units fan out from the definitive lines.

There is nothing wrong with the current portrayal and Hubert's explanation of the recon move is spot on.

So sorry you guys have to click a little bit, like try playing a real monster of a wargame or use a poorly coded piece of garbage software that my company mandates.[:'(]

Not that things can't be better, but so far there doesn't seem any real suggestion to improve these mechanics.
It is exactly like that! [8D]
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by gravyface_ »

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield
Ah. The entire game consists of attacks over one or more hex fields but after a movement in unknown terrain this rule may please, please no longer be valid. LOL.

Nope, not at all. It's really not hard to follow (at least I thought), but perhaps the blind faith is distorting your ability to comprehend? Happens all the time to zealots, I understand.

So let's try again:

Moving into an enemy-held hex? Game on, surprise away; moving into an adjacent hex? No surprise, thanks.

It's really not that difficult. And even better, there are dozens of games across two decades of prior art to guide you along.


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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by sPzAbt653 »

so far there doesn't seem any real suggestion to improve these mechanics
I don't know what the past issue was that Hubert has referred to, and that to avoid that issue something was changed to what we have now, so I don't really know what I am dancing around. But KZ's statement in Post #34 seems like a reasonable suggestion.
To recap, the main issue in this discussion is that these 'recon moves' require unnecessary clicking. Recon/spotting only happens after a moved unit is unselected. This causes the player extra clicks for every 'recon move' that appear unnecessary.
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by crispy131313 »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
so far there doesn't seem any real suggestion to improve these mechanics
I don't know what the past issue was that Hubert has referred to, and that to avoid that issue something was changed to what we have now, so I don't really know what I am dancing around. But KZ's statement in Post #34 seems like a reasonable suggestion.
To recap, the main issue in this discussion is that these 'recon moves' require unnecessary clicking. Recon/spotting only happens after a moved unit is unselected. This causes the player extra clicks for every 'recon move' that appear unnecessary.

It is not 100% only a matter of an extra click. In many cases, I will lose the ability to force my way into an opponents (expected) zone of control by using the "recon move." There is a trade off. Even the application of this make sense to me when applied in real terms.
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by TheBattlefield »

ORIGINAL: gravyface_

Moving into an enemy-held hex? Game on, surprise away; moving into an adjacent hex? No surprise, thanks.

It's really not that difficult.
Moving into an adjacent hex - an enemy unit becomes visible. Perhaps the approaching formation is not really surprised, but definitely it has renounced a previous recon - otherwise the opponent would have been revealed long before. Now the enemy unit is attacking the adjacent hex - if there is a suitable initiation value. Movement phase ended. Yes, it is very easy. [:)]
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by ame »

Surprising happens too often, so if the penalties it gives aren't toned down, then I think it is reasonable that it only happens when you move a unit onto the hex an unspotted enemy is in, rather than an adjacent one as it does now.
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by Patrat »

ORIGINAL: gravyface_

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

ORIGINAL: The Land




Quite - this is a corps-level game, and the highest level "recon" unit historically was probably an armoured cavalry regiment, more probably a battalion-level unit integral to a division (probably rarely deployed as a full battalion but split into subunits along each axis of advance). It's likely that in many situations corps-level units would have had air recon assets available to them, which are poorly modelled by the game's "air recon" function.

Quite right, a strategy game. A game in which we adapt to the given strategic possibilities and make use of them. Nobody wants to make a Panzergeneral out of Strategic Command but currently we have a new movement system and units with special reconnaissance capacities. I am very welcome to any neatly balanced adaptation of the game engine based on our feedback. But sometimes, when discussing this issue, I have the impression that the game mechanic is faulty and can not be played properly without an intervention. I can not agree with such an opinion at any time.

But we kinda did already. I mean, let's not kid ourselves, this is a casual "strategic" game that's a lot closer to Panzer General than not.

Fun as hell, but this is not a strategic simulation by any stretch of the imagination.


At the strategic level, I don't think you can call any game a simulation.

This game may not have all the logistic minutia of other strategic games, but that doesn't distract from it be a realistic portrayal of the viable strategic options available to both the Axis and Allies.

Just because other games bogs you down with a bunch of minute details doesn't necessarily make them a simulation or more realistic.
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by The Land »

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre
ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Were the Germans really surprised that the Poznan Army was in Poznan?

This question is more interesting than might first appear, as the Germans actually lost track of the location of the Poznan army during the first week of the invasion.

Yes, though because they were doing more or less the opposite of what the tank unit is doing in this scenario: the Germans knew the Poznan Army was around Poznan, so they ignored it and ended up sufficiently far in the rear of the Poznan Army that they lost touch with it ;)
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AllenK
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by AllenK »

I think the issue is a relationship between the rate of movement, the chance of being surprised (ambushed) and, if surprised, the resulting damage.

At a strategic level, the choice is between a cautious, deliberate advance behind a recon screen in order to avoid casualties or deep, rapid penetration to secure strategic objectives before they can be defended and/or fortified and never mind the cost. In reality there are all sorts of shades of this but it has to be worked into a playable game.

A cautious advance would have a low chance of being surprised and, on average, lower resulting damage if surprised. This should ensure most of the time a cautious advance will stop on contact with the enemy with no substantive losses but sometimes the recon elements will take damage (1 point reduction) and occasionally a recon failure leads to more substantive damage to the main combat elements (2, possibly a maximum of 3 points damage). The penalty is all this recon takes time and the hex movement rate is set accordingly. Perhaps somewhere around a third to half of the maximum. Cautious advance would be a selectable option.

A rapid advance would have maximum movement rate but with higher chances of surprise and, on average, higher resulting damage if surprised. If not surprised, there should be the option to ignore the defence and continue the advance if sufficient movement points remain.

A forced march 'send the tanks hell for leather down that highway and don't stop until you reach Paris' approach would cover double the maximum ground but have the highest chances of surprise and, on average, the highest damage. However, the option to continue the advance would be irrespective of surprise. The fatigue and morale penalties would still apply to forced march.

A guide for maximum/forced movement rates would probably be the daily advance figures the Allies achieved following the El Alamein breakout, Normandy breakouts into Brittany and beyond (USA) and capturing Brussels and Antwerp (UK) or the Germans in the early stages of Barbarossa.

A similar concept could apply to CV units moving at sea. Deliberate movement with smallest chance of surprise and damage and, if not surprised, 360 degree maximum spotting range governed by aircraft ranges and long-range research. Rapid movement with higher chances of surprise and damage and the same spotting ranges but only in the 90 degree arc of advance. Forced movement with double range but highest chance of surprise and resulting damage and minimal spotting if not surprised.

As a new player to SC, it appears some of this is reflected in the maximum spotting range being 2 hexes the first time the unit stops but only 1 hex thereafter. Whether or not the ideas above are worth implementing would depend on whether or not the various percentages can be set so that the broad parameters occur most of the time but exceptions either way are possible.
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by James Taylor »

Can you imagine the AI dealing with these options? For H to H games, I see no problem with a more random set of optional movement choices and consequences, but the AI......???

With every addition of complexity we will see the erosion of AI competency unless applied with extreme care, thought and contemplation.

Sure, AIs get better over the years, but still this will be an aweful big trade off. I could buy into the invasion of an enemy occupied hex, but real world applications lead me to believe a unit exerting a zone of control, especially corps or army size, would certainly feel some friction with an enemy insurrection.
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by Capitaine »

These units are armies and corps. Can anyone supply historical evidence of this "surprise concept" at this scale and frequency? I've studied military history a long time and offhand I can't recall any. Be good to have some instances in Germany's invasion of Poland and France where Blitzkrieg would've spawned this phenomenon the most.
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by Hubert Cater »

ORIGINAL: ame

The way Hubert says only applies to moving hex by hex DURING a SINGLE move. But if you repeatedly move one tile and right click to deselect the unit, it spots around it, allowing you to avoid surprise attacks.

Thanks Ame and this was an unintentional bug that we've fixed for the final v1.01 update release due out shortly.
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by Hubert Cater »

Thanks for all the feedback everyone and we have a few things to think about for sure and discussions have already started on our end based on this.
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by Altermann »

I am sorry but this is still not making sense to me.
1) Spotting - Why is it, while on land, where there are trees, hills, mountains, cities and towns to block spotting, I can see an enemy unit at 2 hexes, while on the ocean, where visibility is not blocked unless by weather conditions, I cannot spot an enemy ship? The only way is to Blunder into it! Excuse me but in real life, the crew of a ship/sub would be able to spot the smoke/exhaust of a convoy or ship at 40 to 60 miles depending weather and on how high up the spotter was. Spotting should be consistent for both Land and Sea, or better still reversed - making spotting on Sea 2 hexes and only 1 hex on Land
2) Surprise - in my opinion, in the early years of the war, unless the weather was terrible, or U-boat crew were complete imbeciles and/or blind, they would have been able to spot a convoy or ship from miles away. It is quite possible that a U-boat was surprised by a ship, but I find it highly unlikely. I think the only way they could have been surprised was by aircraft, and then possibly only within 800 miles of shoreline. Later in the war after Radar was perfected for ships, I can see a higher percentage of subs being surprised by a destroyer, but mainly at night
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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by sPzAbt653 »

this was an unintentional bug that we've fixed for the final v1.01 update release due out shortly.
Now that the 'bug' has been fixed, spotting only occurs on a units first move, regardless the number of hexes. Effectively, there is now no recon after the first move. This INCREASES the number of surprise attacks, which is the opposite of what we need/want/expect.

I'd expect something like is seen in this [from the Allied side] screenshot when FOW = ON [all units represented by nationality and type]. If FOW = OFF then all the units can be fully revealed [as they are now]. At sea maybe all naval units can be represented by those '?' units.

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RE: Spotting and Surprise!

Post by James Taylor »

The more randomness of expectations offsets our historical knowledge to capture the unknown nature the real players of WW2 felt.

Isn't this one of the most noted experiences that a wargame should try to imitate but always fails.

Everyone always wants to know exactly how the mechanics work right down to the algorithms. I'm sure out fore fathers would have cherished such information trying to fight a world war.
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