Kolberg - The Movie

Gamers can also use this forum to chat about any game related subject, news, rumours etc.

Moderator: maddog986

User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41916
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Neilster
In 1943-1944 Germany made tens thousands AFVs in a year when air bombings and material shortages began. Before that it was the same as before the war

I have demonstrated to you that this is not the case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ar ... rld_War_II

German AFV production in WW2

1939: 370
1940: 1,888
1941: 3,623
1942: 5,530
1943: 11,601
1944: 18,956
1945: 4,406

These figures are completely at odds with your assertion.

Cheers, Neilster
warspite1

Not sure of the Wiki source for that, but The World War II Database (Ellis) comes up with pretty similar figures - 12,000 in 1943 and 19,000 in 1944.

Maybe those insisting on 'tens of thousands' are inadvertently including trucks and lorries?? According to Ellis these numbered 74,000 in 1943 and 67,000 in 1944.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41916
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

Can we assume that not all Nazis knew about all the shit that was going on? Maybe Nazis assigned to monitor the publications decided something like: "Yeah, this matches with party's propaganda. Approved." And they had no reliable information about concentration camps and the rest.
warspite1

By **** I assume you mean the Final Solution?

Even if, as is likely, many did not know about the Final Solution, I think we should assume that yes, all Nazis - all Germans - knew about the rest of it. They were there in the 1930's as the Jews were gradually, with each passing law, slowly (and ever more quickly) expunged from German society and German daily life. Jews, Communists and anybody who didn't 'fit' were taken away - where did they go? Some may have chosen to ignore the obvious for whatever reason (personal security, fear, helplessness) - out of sight, out of mind - but they don't get a free pass. Where did they think the Nuremburg laws were headed?
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
Neilster
Posts: 2880
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Devonport, Tasmania, Australia

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by Neilster »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Neilster

I have demonstrated to you that this is not the case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ar ... rld_War_II

German AFV production in WW2

1939: 370
1940: 1,888
1941: 3,623
1942: 5,530
1943: 11,601
1944: 18,956
1945: 4,406

These figures are completely at odds with your assertion.

Cheers, Neilster
warspite1

Not sure of the Wiki source for that, but The World War II Database (Ellis) comes up with pretty similar figures - 12,000 in 1943 and 19,000 in 1944.

Maybe those insisting on 'tens of thousands' are inadvertently including trucks and lorries?? According to Ellis these numbered 74,000 in 1943 and 67,000 in 1944.

The point is the Germans didn't keep production at about pre-war levels and then suddenly went mad in 1943/44. There was a clear acceleration from the beginning of the war onwards. The story for aircraft production is similar.

Cheers, Neilster
Cheers, Neilster
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41916
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Neilster

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Neilster



I have demonstrated to you that this is not the case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ar ... rld_War_II

German AFV production in WW2

1939: 370
1940: 1,888
1941: 3,623
1942: 5,530
1943: 11,601
1944: 18,956
1945: 4,406

These figures are completely at odds with your assertion.

Cheers, Neilster
warspite1

Not sure of the Wiki source for that, but The World War II Database (Ellis) comes up with pretty similar figures - 12,000 in 1943 and 19,000 in 1944.

Maybe those insisting on 'tens of thousands' are inadvertently including trucks and lorries?? According to Ellis these numbered 74,000 in 1943 and 67,000 in 1944.
Before that it was the same as before the war

The point is the Germans didn't keep production at about pre-war levels and then suddenly went mad in 1943/44. There was a clear acceleration from the beginning of the war onwards. The story for aircraft production is similar.

Cheers, Neilster
warspite1

I completely agree - that is nonsense. Oberst Adolf von Schell was trying to drag German vehicle production up in the late 30's. One of the amazing things about Germany was the vehicle per head nos. (which of course was key when trying to re-arm).

- Italy 1 car for every 104 people
- UK 1 in 14
- USA almost 1 in 3
- Germany 1 in 47

So what? Well think about the knock-on effects - less drivers for the army, less mechanics, less repair shops, less production facilities. Shiny new factories don't just happen overnight.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
Neilster
Posts: 2880
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Devonport, Tasmania, Australia

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by Neilster »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

Can we assume that not all Nazis knew about all the shit that was going on? Maybe Nazis assigned to monitor the publications decided something like: "Yeah, this matches with party's propaganda. Approved." And they had no reliable information about concentration camps and the rest.
warspite1

By **** I assume you mean the Final Solution?

Even if, as is likely, many did not know about the Final Solution, I think we should assume that yes, all Nazis - all Germans - knew about the rest of it. They were there in the 1930's as the Jews were gradually, with each passing law, slowly (and ever more quickly) expunged from German society and German daily life. Jews, Communists and anybody who didn't 'fit' were taken away - where did they go? Some may have chosen to ignore the obvious for whatever reason (personal security, fear, helplessness) - out of sight, out of mind - but they don't get a free pass. Where did they think the Nuremburg laws were headed?
Exactly. There was a collective blindness and amnesia at work. Most of those Nazi Party cards and uniforms went onto the fire either at, or just after, the end. Somehow hardly anyone noticed the perhaps 15,000 work camps in the Third Reich, (not just Poland) and the millions of slave labourers toiling in appalling conditions. Troops, who know what burning human flesh smells like, couldn't help but notice it while passing through Poland on their way to the Eastern Front.

Then there's the "clean Wehrmacht" myth and it's now clear that an astonishing number of rapes were carried out almost without sanction in the East.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Wehrmacht

Cheers, Neilster
Cheers, Neilster
User avatar
Neilster
Posts: 2880
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Devonport, Tasmania, Australia

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by Neilster »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Neilster

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

Not sure of the Wiki source for that, but The World War II Database (Ellis) comes up with pretty similar figures - 12,000 in 1943 and 19,000 in 1944.

Maybe those insisting on 'tens of thousands' are inadvertently including trucks and lorries?? According to Ellis these numbered 74,000 in 1943 and 67,000 in 1944.
Before that it was the same as before the war

The point is the Germans didn't keep production at about pre-war levels and then suddenly went mad in 1943/44. There was a clear acceleration from the beginning of the war onwards. The story for aircraft production is similar.

Cheers, Neilster
warspite1

I completely agree - that is nonsense. Oberst Adolf von Schell was trying to drag German vehicle production up in the late 30's. One of the amazing things about Germany was the vehicle per head nos. (which of course was key when trying to re-arm).

- Italy 1 car for every 104 people
- UK 1 in 14
- USA almost 1 in 3
- Germany 1 in 47

So what? Well think about the knock-on effects - less drivers for the army, less mechanics, less repair shops, less production facilities. Shiny new factories don't just happen overnight.
Yes. One of the problems the expanding Heer had was training enough drivers. With all Germany's pre-war problems, cars, and hence people who could drive, were relatively rare. As your figures show, cars were almost a luxury item outside the U.S. until the 1950s.

To give an Australian example, the first indigenously manufactured car here was the FX Holden in 1948. From memory these cost about two years' median wages, or about US$100,000 in today's money. For that, you got an engine, manual transmission, wheels, chassis, bodywork, seats and not much else.

As a result, someone getting a new car at the time was a really big deal, as my parents will attest. Britain, desperately short of money after the war, exported 90% of the cars they made until deep into the 50s. Owning one there then was unusual. It was for the well off and doctors.

Cheers, Neilster
Cheers, Neilster
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41916
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Neilster
ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

Can we assume that not all Nazis knew about all the shit that was going on? Maybe Nazis assigned to monitor the publications decided something like: "Yeah, this matches with party's propaganda. Approved." And they had no reliable information about concentration camps and the rest.
warspite1

By **** I assume you mean the Final Solution?

Even if, as is likely, many did not know about the Final Solution, I think we should assume that yes, all Nazis - all Germans - knew about the rest of it. They were there in the 1930's as the Jews were gradually, with each passing law, slowly (and ever more quickly) expunged from German society and German daily life. Jews, Communists and anybody who didn't 'fit' were taken away - where did they go? Some may have chosen to ignore the obvious for whatever reason (personal security, fear, helplessness) - out of sight, out of mind - but they don't get a free pass. Where did they think the Nuremburg laws were headed?
Exactly. There was a collective blindness and amnesia at work. Most of those Nazi Party cards and uniforms went onto the fire either at, or just after, the end. Somehow hardly anyone noticed the perhaps 15,000 work camps in the Third Reich, (not just Poland) and the millions of slave labourers toiling in appalling conditions. Troops, who know what burning human flesh smells like, couldn't help but notice it while passing through Poland on their way to the Eastern Front.

Then there's the "clean Wehrmacht" myth and it's now clear that an astonishing number of rapes were carried out almost without sanction in the East.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Wehrmacht

Cheers, Neilster
warspite1

The nonsensical position of those Nazis who denied they 'knew' (or denied agreeing with the Final Solution) asserting that that somehow absolved them of guilt was, ironically, put most eloquently by Heydrich in the quite brilliant film Conspiracy:

Heydrich: [to Kritzinger] Well then, this is the moment to be... practical, until such time as Germany can afford your philosophy, which is what? Hound them, impoverish them, exploit them, imprison them - just do not _kill_ them, and you are God's noblest of men. I find that, uh, truly remarkable.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
demyansk
Posts: 2871
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:55 pm

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by demyansk »

A new series is starting I believe on march 4? I might be a few days off on the AHC channel, Hitler's killing squads. It looks like it might be concentrating on the SS Einsatzgruppen, a 4 part series.
User avatar
Blond_Knight
Posts: 998
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 3:52 am

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by Blond_Knight »

ORIGINAL: warspite1




The nonsensical position of those Nazis who denied they 'knew' (or denied agreeing with the Final Solution) asserting that that somehow absolved them of guilt was, ironically, put most eloquently by Heydrich in the quite brilliant film Conspiracy:

Heydrich: [to Kritzinger] Well then, this is the moment to be... practical, until such time as Germany can afford your philosophy, which is what? Hound them, impoverish them, exploit them, imprison them - just do not _kill_ them, and you are God's noblest of men. I find that, uh, truly remarkable.

Actually 'Conspiracy' was a darn good movie. What made it so chilling was how casual they were about eradicating a race of people.
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41916
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

ORIGINAL: warspite1




The nonsensical position of those Nazis who denied they 'knew' (or denied agreeing with the Final Solution) asserting that that somehow absolved them of guilt was, ironically, put most eloquently by Heydrich in the quite brilliant film Conspiracy:

Heydrich: [to Kritzinger] Well then, this is the moment to be... practical, until such time as Germany can afford your philosophy, which is what? Hound them, impoverish them, exploit them, imprison them - just do not _kill_ them, and you are God's noblest of men. I find that, uh, truly remarkable.

Actually 'Conspiracy' was a darn good movie. What made it so chilling was how casual they were about eradicating a race of people.
warspite1

Indeed. The fact that so many around that table were university educated men calmly discussing the wholesale slaughter of an entire people is profoundly shocking.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Zorch
Posts: 7087
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:21 pm

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

ORIGINAL: warspite1




The nonsensical position of those Nazis who denied they 'knew' (or denied agreeing with the Final Solution) asserting that that somehow absolved them of guilt was, ironically, put most eloquently by Heydrich in the quite brilliant film Conspiracy:

Heydrich: [to Kritzinger] Well then, this is the moment to be... practical, until such time as Germany can afford your philosophy, which is what? Hound them, impoverish them, exploit them, imprison them - just do not _kill_ them, and you are God's noblest of men. I find that, uh, truly remarkable.

Actually 'Conspiracy' was a darn good movie. What made it so chilling was how casual they were about eradicating a race of people.
warspite1

Indeed. The fact that so many around that table were university educated men calmly discussing the wholesale slaughter of an entire people is profoundly shocking.
The Nazis always found collaborators, in every country.
User avatar
Agathosdaimon
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:42 am

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by Agathosdaimon »

ORIGINAL: Neilster

ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

perhaps they didnt check, and rather just only checked to make sure the author was not jewish or such, and perhaps the work of Fichte was never in question by the nazis either, i was just thinking about how they had devoted so much attention to just the White Rose students earlier, but as you say Germany was still not in total war mode in 1941 and things were probably sloppier then what the image of the totalitarian regime would put in our minds.
I very much doubt it. The Nazis moved very quickly to completely control German life as soon as they gained power in 1933. You couldn't join a stamp collecting club without it being approved by the government.

Cheers, Neilster

Thanks Neilster - that was my initial view, they were pretty quick to clamp down everywhere early on - at every work site, business, university campus etc - Victor Klemperer writes about this in his diaries from the period. I would think that something like Alfred Kroener Verlag which was a sizable publisher would be one they would monitor. certainly there are no publications that are critical of the nazis in this period coming out of germany so far as i know of

whether this was still the case in 1941 though i am wondering if it was so - I have a book on the way Behemoth: Struktur und Praxis des Nationalsozialismus 1933-1944, that might shed some light on things further
Zorch
Posts: 7087
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:21 pm

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by Zorch »

A very good movie about the Warsaw Uprising is Warsaw '44 (Miasto 44 in Polish). It has subtitles.

Image
Attachments
miasto44.jpg
miasto44.jpg (190.34 KiB) Viewed 84 times
User avatar
Neilster
Posts: 2880
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Devonport, Tasmania, Australia

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by Neilster »

ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

ORIGINAL: Neilster

ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

perhaps they didnt check, and rather just only checked to make sure the author was not jewish or such, and perhaps the work of Fichte was never in question by the nazis either, i was just thinking about how they had devoted so much attention to just the White Rose students earlier, but as you say Germany was still not in total war mode in 1941 and things were probably sloppier then what the image of the totalitarian regime would put in our minds.
I very much doubt it. The Nazis moved very quickly to completely control German life as soon as they gained power in 1933. You couldn't join a stamp collecting club without it being approved by the government.

Cheers, Neilster

Thanks Neilster - that was my initial view, they were pretty quick to clamp down everywhere early on - at every work site, business, university campus etc - Victor Klemperer writes about this in his diaries from the period. I would think that something like Alfred Kroener Verlag which was a sizable publisher would be one they would monitor. certainly there are no publications that are critical of the nazis in this period coming out of germany so far as i know of

whether this was still the case in 1941 though i am wondering if it was so - I have a book on the way Behemoth: Struktur und Praxis des Nationalsozialismus 1933-1944, that might shed some light on things further
It was absolutely the case. The Nazis only tightened their grip on German society with the outbreak of war and as the military situation deteriorated. Eventually they closed cinemas and non essential publishing was banned.

Cheers, Neilster
Cheers, Neilster
User avatar
TulliusDetritus
Posts: 5581
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:49 am
Location: The Zone™

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
The nonsensical position of those Nazis who denied they 'knew' (or denied agreeing with the Final Solution) asserting that that somehow absolved them of guilt was, ironically, put most eloquently by Heydrich in the quite brilliant film Conspiracy:

Just in case, are you aware that that movie (2001) was the remake (almost literally word by word ie plagiarism) of the excellent German movie Die Wannseekonferenz (1984)?

IMO the original is much much better, the real deal.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088377/
"Hitler is a horrible sexual degenerate, a dangerous fool" - Mussolini, circa 1934
User avatar
Agathosdaimon
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:42 am

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by Agathosdaimon »

the wannsee conference makes me feel ill - i mean all of it does re the genocide, atrocity and terror, - but something about the wannsee conference, the - even its unassuming name just feels so deathly, - a pall of death falls over me, when i try to think about how humans can go about carrying out the orderly business beyond the irredeemable leaden curtain they have passed through, where talk of organising mass execution is just another order of business,- there is no humanity to be found among them, it really does literally make me queasy to try and imagine.
User avatar
operating
Posts: 3158
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:34 am

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by operating »

The film deserved an Oscar/Academy Award/ect., from what was shown in the short clip. If it was dubbed in English might have been a smash hit in the Free-World of the day. Erroyl Flynn could have been leading the charge in this one, instead of "The Charge of the Light Brigade".
and one flew over the Cuckoos nest
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41916
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1
The nonsensical position of those Nazis who denied they 'knew' (or denied agreeing with the Final Solution) asserting that that somehow absolved them of guilt was, ironically, put most eloquently by Heydrich in the quite brilliant film Conspiracy:

Just in case, are you aware that that movie (2001) was the remake (almost literally word by word ie plagiarism) of the excellent German movie Die Wannseekonferenz (1984)?

IMO the original is much much better, the real deal.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088377/
warspite1

I have never seen the German film - but would like to (so long as it has subtitles [;)]) as I am intrigued to see if its as good as you say.

However I am would be grateful for your clarification re your comments on:

1. You say it is 'much much better' but also say that Conspiracy is almost word for word the same. That being the case, what is it that makes the original 'the real deal'? If its not the script then the only other obvious variable would be the cast. All I can say is, if the acting is 'much much better' than the BBC/HBO version then I would be surprised - but also even more keen to see the original!

2. The other thing is you use the word plagiarism. That suggests something illegal and that basically the HBO/BBC production team have passed something off as their own. There is copying (the best form of flattery) because something is so damn good, and there is stealing someone else's work. I have no idea on which of the two is involved here, although have never read anything to suggest that BBC/HBO did anything illegal. Again, I would be grateful for your input on what makes you say plagiarism (i.e. something underhand) is at work here.

Many thanks.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
durangokid
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:35 pm

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by durangokid »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1
The nonsensical position of those Nazis who denied they 'knew' (or denied agreeing with the Final Solution) asserting that that somehow absolved them of guilt was, ironically, put most eloquently by Heydrich in the quite brilliant film Conspiracy:

Just in case, are you aware that that movie (2001) was the remake (almost literally word by word ie plagiarism) of the excellent German movie Die Wannseekonferenz (1984)?

IMO the original is much much better, the real deal.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088377/
warspite1

I have never seen the German film - but would like to (so long as it has subtitles [;)]) as I am intrigued to see if its as good as you say.

However I am would be grateful for your clarification re your comments on:

1. You say it is 'much much better' but also say that Conspiracy is almost word for word the same. That being the case, what is it that makes the original 'the real deal'? If its not the script then the only other obvious variable would be the cast. All I can say is, if the acting is 'much much better' than the BBC/HBO version then I would be surprised - but also even more keen to see the original!

2. The other thing is you use the word plagiarism. That suggests something illegal and that basically the HBO/BBC production team have passed something off as their own. There is copying (the best form of flattery) because something is so damn good, and there is stealing someone else's work. I have no idea on which of the two is involved here, although have never read anything to suggest that BBC/HBO did anything illegal. Again, I would be grateful for your input on what makes you say plagiarism (i.e. something underhand) is at work here.

Many thanks.

Here you go, the German version from 1984, with English subtitles : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URSNN5mnI2g&t=2671s

Both the English and the German movies had to create dialogue, however they were both based on the minutes that survived from the Wansee meeting of 1942 and found in the German Foreign Office in 1947.

As for the quality of the movies, it would be hard to better the English version, but it's surely subjective.
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41916
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Kolberg - The Movie

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: durangokid

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus




Just in case, are you aware that that movie (2001) was the remake (almost literally word by word ie plagiarism) of the excellent German movie Die Wannseekonferenz (1984)?

IMO the original is much much better, the real deal.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088377/
warspite1

I have never seen the German film - but would like to (so long as it has subtitles [;)]) as I am intrigued to see if its as good as you say.

However I am would be grateful for your clarification re your comments on:

1. You say it is 'much much better' but also say that Conspiracy is almost word for word the same. That being the case, what is it that makes the original 'the real deal'? If its not the script then the only other obvious variable would be the cast. All I can say is, if the acting is 'much much better' than the BBC/HBO version then I would be surprised - but also even more keen to see the original!

2. The other thing is you use the word plagiarism. That suggests something illegal and that basically the HBO/BBC production team have passed something off as their own. There is copying (the best form of flattery) because something is so damn good, and there is stealing someone else's work. I have no idea on which of the two is involved here, although have never read anything to suggest that BBC/HBO did anything illegal. Again, I would be grateful for your input on what makes you say plagiarism (i.e. something underhand) is at work here.

Many thanks.

Here you go, the German version from 1984, with English subtitles : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URSNN5mnI2g&t=2671s

Both the English and the German movies had to create dialogue, however they were both based on the minutes that survived from the Wansee meeting of 1942 and found in the German Foreign Office in 1947.

As for the quality of the movies, it would be hard to better the English version, but it's surely subjective.
warspite1

Excellent - thank-you! I will ensure I make some time this week to view this.

I have just flicked through a few scenes and have so far not recognised any dialogue that is similar to Conspiracy - but its early days.

Re subjective - absolutely - and I have no axe to grind or preference for one to be better than the other. All I know is, its going to have to be damn good to beat the HBO/BBC version - but if it does? Well that's even more of a treat coming up [:)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”