And to continue the confusion, the base at the other end of Okinawa is NagoORIGINAL: Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
The turn is off to John.
I'm trying something new for Fun House:
B-29s from Legaspi and 4EB from Naha to hit Manila at 20k, preceded (ideally) or followed by many top fighter squadrons set to sweep.
John has 200+ fighters based at Manila. The objective is to destroy as many of them as possible, either in the air or on the ground.
Things could go wrong - sweeps follow bombers or John guesses right that an attack is coming and guesses perfectly on altitude - but even then losses should be acceptable. 4EB shouldn't take excessive damage at 20k and even if my fighter squadrons are roughed up there are quite a few remaining at base.
You have Okinawa already?!
The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
- Canoerebel
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
Email from a frustrated John III about the situation in Burma: "Am pulling out what little hair there is on my head. THREE turns ago I had that ID and 3 Reg/Brig ready to move by the RR from Rangoon to Moulmein. Did they on 7th? No. Did they on the 8th?? NO. Did they move on the 9th??? NO! Take your gift and I throw in the towel. Crap…" [the rest of his email makes it absolutely clear he means he's throwing in the towel at Rangoon, not the game itself; he's fine and soldiering on).
He's wrong about the timing and he doesn't understand that you can strat move into a contested hex but not out.
His 18th Div. and a couple of mixed brigades retreated after combat into Rangoon three turns ago. He apparently ordered them to strategic mode that turn. That process takes a minimum of two turns and a maximum of three turns to complete. But during the second turn, a Brit recon unit arrived in the hex. That was enough to prevent his units from departing in strategic mode.
So now he has 30k troops cut off and in the wrong mode. He may have similar problems in Pegu.
He's wrong about the timing and he doesn't understand that you can strat move into a contested hex but not out.
His 18th Div. and a couple of mixed brigades retreated after combat into Rangoon three turns ago. He apparently ordered them to strategic mode that turn. That process takes a minimum of two turns and a maximum of three turns to complete. But during the second turn, a Brit recon unit arrived in the hex. That was enough to prevent his units from departing in strategic mode.
So now he has 30k troops cut off and in the wrong mode. He may have similar problems in Pegu.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
I think the Japanese were sure to lose the position at Rangoon and Pegu anyway, but that strat mode mistake really sealed their fate. Ouch.
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
We all know that John does not have much zest for land warfare, and he probably has not spent much effort learning the wrinkles that make a difference. Strat move rules have lots of ifs, ands and buts. I was considering whether this warranted a do-over but decided, IMO, it was entirely controllable by John so it does not need a do-over. Unfortunately the hit on his morale will make the game less enjoyable for him.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
- Canoerebel
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
I ran the same idea through my head and came to the same conclusions.
I've made similar miscalculations in the game, most recently not understanding that my carriers couldn't upgrade at the port I had selected. That little miscalculation played a big part in what happened at Celebes (my carriers ended up going much further away and thus couldn't respond to the emergency as I had originally envisioned).
That was just one of many misunderstandings/miscalculations I've made. I still think the biggest two were: a fundamental lack of understanding of what the Allied fighter replacement rates were (that played a big role in Sumatra) and granting John the "no strat bombing until 1944" house rule.
John may lose 30k very beat up troops (assuming they can't retreat into Pegu since Allied troops are there too). He'll have to rebuild these units, but I don't think he's lost a great deal of squads in the game and he undoubtedly has or will pull out cadres.
I've made similar miscalculations in the game, most recently not understanding that my carriers couldn't upgrade at the port I had selected. That little miscalculation played a big part in what happened at Celebes (my carriers ended up going much further away and thus couldn't respond to the emergency as I had originally envisioned).
That was just one of many misunderstandings/miscalculations I've made. I still think the biggest two were: a fundamental lack of understanding of what the Allied fighter replacement rates were (that played a big role in Sumatra) and granting John the "no strat bombing until 1944" house rule.
John may lose 30k very beat up troops (assuming they can't retreat into Pegu since Allied troops are there too). He'll have to rebuild these units, but I don't think he's lost a great deal of squads in the game and he undoubtedly has or will pull out cadres.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
- Canoerebel
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
5/9/44
Busy day. See map for details.
Busy day. See map for details.
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"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
- JohnDillworth
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
Maybe delay your Rangoon attack until you capture Pegu? This way the units could not retreat down the coast?
Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
Does the presence of Allied units at Pegu prevent John's Rangoon army from retreating there? Or can they retreat as long as he hold the hexside?
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
I've already ordered the attack and sent the turn to John, 'cause I have to hit the road for an exciting multi-media speaking engagement at the Funk Heritage Center in Waleska, Georgia. (I get to do the funk today.)
Rangoon has five forts, urban terrain, and probably 100 raw AV, beat up but not totally worthless. I bet he'll hold Rangoon for at least another turn and maybe three or four more turns. He'll have more trouble holding Pegu. It might fall tomorrow; if not, almost surely the day after.
Rangoon has five forts, urban terrain, and probably 100 raw AV, beat up but not totally worthless. I bet he'll hold Rangoon for at least another turn and maybe three or four more turns. He'll have more trouble holding Pegu. It might fall tomorrow; if not, almost surely the day after.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Does the presence of Allied units at Pegu prevent John's Rangoon army from retreating there? Or can they retreat as long as he hold the hexside?
The presence of units renders that hex useless for retreat purposes for the enemy because retreats only happen along valid supply paths. Your units break that supply path.
So no, they will not retreat to Pegu. If he wants them to leave Rangoon for Pegu, he has to walk them there.
- JohnDillworth
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
not sure, you might have a point thereDoes the presence of Allied units at Pegu prevent John's Rangoon army from retreating there? Or can they retreat as long as he hold the hexside?
Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly
- Mike McCreery
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
A very interesting thing happened to me in my game against MrKane.
I was trying to move northeast to retreat a stack of units. MrKane beat me to the hex by 1 turn. He fully controlled the hex but I controlled the hex side so I expected the next turn to be in that hex. The stack didnt move the next turn and the counter went past the 46 hex movement.
I figured I was done but the very turn afterwards another unit entered the hex from a different location and I guess because the hex was now 'contested' it allowed the units to move into the hex.
So, as long as John holds the hex side and also has units in the destination hex he should be able to move into the hex once the units convert out of strat mode.
It doesnt sound like he will have enough time to complete that though.
I was trying to move northeast to retreat a stack of units. MrKane beat me to the hex by 1 turn. He fully controlled the hex but I controlled the hex side so I expected the next turn to be in that hex. The stack didnt move the next turn and the counter went past the 46 hex movement.
I figured I was done but the very turn afterwards another unit entered the hex from a different location and I guess because the hex was now 'contested' it allowed the units to move into the hex.
So, as long as John holds the hex side and also has units in the destination hex he should be able to move into the hex once the units convert out of strat mode.
It doesnt sound like he will have enough time to complete that though.
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
CRs army has not crossed the Pegu to Rangoon hex side. Are you saying that is not a valid supply path between the two bases?ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Does the presence of Allied units at Pegu prevent John's Rangoon army from retreating there? Or can they retreat as long as he hold the hexside?
The presence of units renders that hex useless for retreat purposes for the enemy because retreats only happen along valid supply paths. Your units break that supply path.
So no, they will not retreat to Pegu. If he wants them to leave Rangoon for Pegu, he has to walk them there.
I was thinking since John holds Pegu and the both sides of the adjoining hex side are his, he should have no trouble running down the road there.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
CRs army has not crossed the Pegu to Rangoon hex side. Are you saying that is not a valid supply path between the two bases?ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Does the presence of Allied units at Pegu prevent John's Rangoon army from retreating there? Or can they retreat as long as he hold the hexside?
The presence of units renders that hex useless for retreat purposes for the enemy because retreats only happen along valid supply paths. Your units break that supply path.
So no, they will not retreat to Pegu. If he wants them to leave Rangoon for Pegu, he has to walk them there.
I was thinking since John holds Pegu and the both sides of the adjoining hex side are his, he should have no trouble running down the road there.
There is not because supply can not flow through the Pegu hex, and you can't retreat to a hex with enemy units in it regardless of hexside control. Ergo, no retreat path exists.
He can manually march there, yes. That's not what he was asking, to my understanding.
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
Went through some of this in detail in PBM. Basically, supply flow cares about hex side ownership and ignores hex ownership.
As you know, the boundary between two hexes is actually two hex sides, one that is part of each hex. For example the side of hex A that faces hex B, and the side of hex B that faces hex A. You must own both of those hex sides for supply to flow from hex A to hex B, or from hex B to hex A.
Consider hexes A, B, and C all in a row. If you own both hex sides between A and B, plus both hex sides between B and C, then supply can flow from hex A to hex C, even if there are enemy units (along with yours!) in hex B. We verified that in a PBM beyond doubt.
If you want to stop supply from flowing, you have to gain ownership of at least one of the hex sides the supply is flowing through.
It is true that you cannot trace a retreat path into a hex which contains an enemy unit, but that's the retreat part of the code.
Use the 'w' key to see where supply flow is allowed or blocked based on hex side ownership.
As you know, the boundary between two hexes is actually two hex sides, one that is part of each hex. For example the side of hex A that faces hex B, and the side of hex B that faces hex A. You must own both of those hex sides for supply to flow from hex A to hex B, or from hex B to hex A.
Consider hexes A, B, and C all in a row. If you own both hex sides between A and B, plus both hex sides between B and C, then supply can flow from hex A to hex C, even if there are enemy units (along with yours!) in hex B. We verified that in a PBM beyond doubt.
If you want to stop supply from flowing, you have to gain ownership of at least one of the hex sides the supply is flowing through.
It is true that you cannot trace a retreat path into a hex which contains an enemy unit, but that's the retreat part of the code.
Use the 'w' key to see where supply flow is allowed or blocked based on hex side ownership.
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- Canoerebel
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
That was my understanding, though I admit my knowledge is sorta flabby (imprecise boundaries and jiggly).
So John's Rangoon army can't retreat to Pegu but he can march there if he has time to convert the units from strat mode to move (or combat) mode. And it's possible he'll have the time given the forts and urban defense multiplier.
But even if the worst happens, the loss of a 35k army that has been battered for months, repeatedly undergoing forced withdrawals, isn't a huge thing.
Except: John places way too much emphasis on Burma, at least by this time in 1944. He seems to operate under the idea that the Japanese should be able to stand toe to toe with the Allies in Burma without committing his air force.
He made three mistakes in the Burma campaign: (1) kept his army in advanced positions in open terrain close to Allied level 7, 9 and 9 airfields and failed to begin withdrawing until long after he had armies cutting off his units; (2) didn't understand hexside control (he asked me a few weeks ago how one of my units slipped through a hex to a position behind his MLR, not realizing that I owned the hexside); and (3) not understanding how strat mode works when an enemy unit enters the hex from which you wish to depart.
So John's Rangoon army can't retreat to Pegu but he can march there if he has time to convert the units from strat mode to move (or combat) mode. And it's possible he'll have the time given the forts and urban defense multiplier.
But even if the worst happens, the loss of a 35k army that has been battered for months, repeatedly undergoing forced withdrawals, isn't a huge thing.
Except: John places way too much emphasis on Burma, at least by this time in 1944. He seems to operate under the idea that the Japanese should be able to stand toe to toe with the Allies in Burma without committing his air force.
He made three mistakes in the Burma campaign: (1) kept his army in advanced positions in open terrain close to Allied level 7, 9 and 9 airfields and failed to begin withdrawing until long after he had armies cutting off his units; (2) didn't understand hexside control (he asked me a few weeks ago how one of my units slipped through a hex to a position behind his MLR, not realizing that I owned the hexside); and (3) not understanding how strat mode works when an enemy unit enters the hex from which you wish to depart.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
- Canoerebel
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
I learned today that Lt. General Hal Moore died 11 days ago at age 94. I learned this, purely by coincidence, from a Vietnam War veteran who flew helicopters there in '70 and '71. He and his wife had dinner with Hal Moore, Basil Plumley, and Joe Galloway (among others) at a Veterans Day affair some time ago.
Hal Moore was the author of We Were Soldiers Once, the finest piece of historical writing I've ever read. That's not a new sentiment. I've been telling people that for ten or fifteen years now.
I passed the news along to my oldest son today, who has read We Were Soldiers twice. His reply: "He was a real man."
He was indeed. It's good to have men like Moore to depend upon.
Hal Moore was the author of We Were Soldiers Once, the finest piece of historical writing I've ever read. That's not a new sentiment. I've been telling people that for ten or fifteen years now.
I passed the news along to my oldest son today, who has read We Were Soldiers twice. His reply: "He was a real man."
He was indeed. It's good to have men like Moore to depend upon.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
But flow from where to where? How does one define the start and end of a supply path? I contend that from one base to another base is a path, no matter how short it be. And per witpqs explanation of the hex side issue, since John owns both hex sides between the bases he can retreat there. We'll just have to watch it play out and see if the question is answered during the contest.ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
CRs army has not crossed the Pegu to Rangoon hex side. Are you saying that is not a valid supply path between the two bases?ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
The presence of units renders that hex useless for retreat purposes for the enemy because retreats only happen along valid supply paths. Your units break that supply path.
So no, they will not retreat to Pegu. If he wants them to leave Rangoon for Pegu, he has to walk them there.
I was thinking since John holds Pegu and the both sides of the adjoining hex side are his, he should have no trouble running down the road there.
There is not because supply can not flow through the Pegu hex, and you can't retreat to a hex with enemy units in it regardless of hexside control. Ergo, no retreat path exists.
He can manually march there, yes. That's not what he was asking, to my understanding.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
But flow from where to where? How does one define the start and end of a supply path? I contend that from one base to another base is a path, no matter how short it be. And per witpqs explanation of the hex side issue, since John owns both hex sides between the bases he can retreat there. We'll just have to watch it play out and see if the question is answered during the contest.ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
CRs army has not crossed the Pegu to Rangoon hex side. Are you saying that is not a valid supply path between the two bases?
I was thinking since John holds Pegu and the both sides of the adjoining hex side are his, he should have no trouble running down the road there.
There is not because supply can not flow through the Pegu hex, and you can't retreat to a hex with enemy units in it regardless of hexside control. Ergo, no retreat path exists.
He can manually march there, yes. That's not what he was asking, to my understanding.
The manual states the hex available for retreat must not be "solely" occupied by the enemy.
I've always operated based on the idea they would not retreat into a hex the enemy is "present" in as Loka states. This is the kind of thing that happens so rarely it's hard (for me on a few hours sleep) to recall the details. [;)]
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"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent
You didn't mention whether or not you've informed John of the nature of his mistake.
If you haven't, it might be a good idea to do so in order to prevent him from getting the feeling the game gods are conspiring against him.
Also, it might be a good idea also inform him of the mistake you made that you related above, to show him that the sword cuts both ways.
Personally, and I hope I'm not being unfair, but my biggest fear is John dropping out of the game due to an unsustainable level of frustration on his part.
If you haven't, it might be a good idea to do so in order to prevent him from getting the feeling the game gods are conspiring against him.
Also, it might be a good idea also inform him of the mistake you made that you related above, to show him that the sword cuts both ways.
Personally, and I hope I'm not being unfair, but my biggest fear is John dropping out of the game due to an unsustainable level of frustration on his part.