Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

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Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by dave sindel »

I am in August 1943 of my PBEM game. This last turn I tried for the third time to re-take Wake Island. I failed for the third time. With each successive attempt I've done more research, and tried tactics gleaned from reading the forum. Separate TF's of LST's loaded with supply only. BB's embedded in the amphip TF's, instead of a separate bombardment TF. APA's and LSD's loaded with troops only. Artillery and Armor units on LST's as part of the landing forces. Combat engineers. Everyone 100% prepped. I sent YMS and DMS units in several times before the actual D-Day to clear out minefields. (Mines were the big stumbling block on attempt # 2 - lost several ships that way). An ASW TF to clear out the mini-subs my opponent likes to use defensively in potential landing spots. I have possession of the Marshalls and 4E's stationed at several airfields. (though they didnt fly on D-Day). I'm trying to secure Wake as a stepping stone to the Marianas. With level 5 forts and CD guns and about 7500 troops on the island, can it be taken ? Am I better off to bypass it and neutralize it over time?
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by Oberst_Klink »

If it can be isolated and bypassed, do just that, Kamerad Buckeye. What about the reece/detection level? Do the Nips use it as an advanced sub base, float plane base? Would it hurt your plans if you just leave the Japanese there to eat their meagre rice rations? About the troops... all combat troops or just rear echelon base forces/engineers? Think about what you'd gain in taking it... is it worth the potential losses? Just suggestions, because I don't have a picture of your overall situation. Again -If it can be bypassed and isolated, just do that... not worth the blood of even virtual grunts, really.

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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by dave sindel »

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

If it can be isolated and bypassed, do just that, Kamerad Buckeye. What about the reece/detection level? Do the Nips use it as an advanced sub base, float plane base? Would it hurt your plans if you just leave the Japanese there to eat their meagre rice rations? About the troops... all combat troops or just rear echelon base forces/engineers? Think about what you'd gain in taking it... is it worth the potential losses? Just suggestions, because I don't have a picture of your overall situation. Again -If it can be bypassed and isolated, just do that... not worth the blood of even virtual grunts, really.

Klink, Oberst

Danke Schon Mein Kamerad. I have PBY's reconning the base continually. I dont think he is using it as an advanced sub base, but do think he uses it for float planes. That's my thinking - to take it and Marcus to "blind" him in this area of the ocean.
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

Nothing in the game is impregnable.

For highly fortified islands, supply is the key. You can get yours in; he can't. Bomb out the supply, use up the defenders' internal supply, and he's at 25% AV. Demoralize and disable as much as you can. Then use overwhelming force in the landing. Don't worry about stacking limits. Just pour supply in until the forts drop and it's yours.

Not cheaply though.
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by dave sindel »

Thanks Moose
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by Canoerebel »

I wouldn't worry about stacking up to 2x or even 2.5x, but at 3x the supply seems to evaporate quickly.

So if Wake has 7.5k troops (6k stacking level) and five forts, I'd bring about 15k troops: good infantry, combat engineers, tanks, arty (if there's room) and (if there's room) HQ or amphib force HQ.

Your prep would be important: 100% unless you're certain the enemy garrison is out of supply or badly disabled.

I'd want a BB in my amphibious TFs and I'd want a separate BB TF for bombarding.
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by witpqs »

Good advice above. Here is some of mine.

• Forget about sending mine sweepers in ahead of time. If there are any guns worthy of that name mine sweepers all get killed without doing much. *Do* always put mine sweepers in each convoy that will land troops. If you have an AGC with Amphib Force HQ on board (must be in separate Amphib TF so it does not unload) make sure that has a sweeper in addition to escorts.

• I don't put battleships in the convoys. Battleships are too valuable to bombard. Instead, use real destroyers (not just DE), and, if you want to, cruisers. The landing ships and their escorts will take casualties. It's a war game.

• Keep a pool of destroyers (and cruisers if you use them in landing convoys) in a separate TF. Many times, warships in the landing convoys exhaust their ammo in a day (sometimes two) and are almost worthless for further landing support. Rotate them out and send them to the nearest base to rearm. Use the 'pool TF' to rotate in fresh escorts. If the operation is only a single day that becomes unnecessary.

• If you prepare for an operation to take a single day it will take longer. It has something to do with quantum physics I think. It's just a law of nature.

• Stacking limits: Remember that even though you might not be using the optional stacking limits, islands and atolls (like Wake) have them anyway. The more you over stack the greater the penalties: supply, disruption, fatigue, and I am not sure what else. The supply penalty is applied near the end of each turn *after* combat. If you over stack severely enough your units ashore might be literally stripped of all supply at the end of the turn. This means the following turn they will only have what is landed from ships (or potentially air dropped, but that is usually trivial).

• Having separate convoys for supply is good because ships with units on board land troops first and only then supply. A convoy with only supply will ensure that some supply is landed with the first phase troops are landed. Remember that over stacking might wipe out all supply at the end of each day, so have multiple separate supply convoys if the the invasion will greatly over stack the base.

• Naval bombardments are a huge factor, most significantly for the disruption they cause to defenders. Preferably bombard at least one day before, the day of the invasion, and continuing each day until the base is taken. It is even better to bombard for many days before. Multi-day bombardments require careful planning. How many separate bombardment TF? What BB/BC/CB/CA/CL and escorts are available for the job? Where can they rearm? How long will it take for the round trip to rearm?

• Aerial bombardments are a significant factor. To the degree possible they should be conducted daily as far in advance as practical. Often doing so entails some form of rotation so that some groups can strike each day. Try to have as many groups as possible strike on invasion day and on the day of each ground assault.

• Low-Ground aerial attacks *with trained crews* in AB/F/FB types can be very effective but take significant casualties. If available plan their use wisely.

• If carrier aircraft are available for ground strikes they might have limited sorties available so plan accordingly. Dive bombing exposes DB to significant ground fire. Consider having DB operate at 5,000 ft (with the TB) so they do not dive bomb, unless opposition is light.

• A 100% prepared floating reserve is a good idea albeit often a luxury. It makes sense when you have enough troops but over stacking would be massive if you landed them all. If you have a floating reserve and you decide to land it, you most likely will need to pull off a similar stacking value of troops at the same time (to avoid the massive over stacking that caused you to hold the reserve back in the first place).

• Landing on A) islands of size 1 or 2, and B) on terrain type Atoll automatically initiates a shock attack when the landing is made by the non-owner of the base. The shock attack is triggered unit by unit. So, when 99% of a unit lands on turn 1 that unit shock attacks. When the remaining 1% of that unit lands on turn 2 the unit again shock attacks. Such consecutive shock attacks have thoroughly shattered many units which could have recovered if they had only stayed in place without attacking. Remember this! (In the example given, just keep the remaining 1% of the unit on board the transports.)

• So you landed on day 1, your units shock attacked but failed to take the base. Now what?

• Make certain that any convoys which are still unloading are ONLY unloading supply. If any convoys are still unloading troops order them to stop. If the troops on shore are short of supply then keep landing supply of course, but remove any ships with units still on board to separate convoys that are order not to unload.

• If you are in over stacking condition watch carefully how much supply is burned on non-assault days. If you are over stacked so much that all supply is burned at the end of each day, then be careful not to land too much each day or it will all be gone too soon. Also, consider pulling off the most battered unit(s) to the remaining units can recover to continue the fight.

• Continue naval bombardments, daily or as close to it as possible.

• Continue aerial bombardments. Carefully husband low-ground attacks and carrier sorties so you will have them when you need them.

• Wait until your troops ashore are AT MOST in the low teens for disruption. Single digits is better! Fatigue will always be a good deal higher; 20's or 30's is best, but you might have some units in the 40's or 50's. Those levels (and certainly above) will have an impact so get it down if you can (by waiting and having the units well supplied).

• When you attack again use Deliberate attacks, not Shock attacks. Do not shatter your sword!

• The advice above about when units are ready to attack applies continuously. But after you get a feel for things you will notice when the defense is weak enough to relax those criteria and attack at higher disruption levels. Remember that higher disruption means a unit is less effective, will cause less harm to the enemy, and will itself take higher casualties. This is all relative to the defenses.

• Rotating attacks can be very effective if you have enough units & strength compared to the defense because all the defending units are stressed each day. The concept is instead of attacking with all units on the same day some stay on Defend that day while others Deliberate attack. The following day they reverse roles. Usually artillery units can Bombard for all attacks, and often armor can attack more days than infantry. Make sure each unit is ready.

• Be aware that artillery bombardments (and ground assaults) will cause those units not attacking to recover more slowly, sometimes at a glacial pace. When your units are recovering too slowly, suspend artillery bombardments (naval and aerial bombardments are OK to continue) and suspend rotating attacks.

• Rome was not built in a day. Be comfortable with the notion of getting ashore, then holding back until your units are ready, then making Deliberate assaults. The results will be good, provided you have tended to the logistics and naval and air support.

Edited: Added blank lines to improve readability. Some corrections and minor additions.
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I wouldn't worry about stacking up to 2x or even 2.5x, but at 3x the supply seems to evaporate quickly.

So if Wake has 7.5k troops (6k stacking level) and five forts, I'd bring about 15k troops: good infantry, combat engineers, tanks, arty (if there's room) and (if there's room) HQ or amphib force HQ.

Your prep would be important: 100% unless you're certain the enemy garrison is out of supply or badly disabled.

I'd want a BB in my amphibious TFs and I'd want a separate BB TF for bombarding.
Forgot to mention these in my short addition. I agree with them!
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by Hotei »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Good advice above. Here is some of mine.

• Forget about sending mine sweepers in ahead of time. If there are any guns worthy of that name mine sweepers all get killed without doing much. *Do* always put mine sweepers in each convoy that will land troops. If you have an AGC with Amphib Force HQ on board (must be in separate Amphib TF so it does not unload) make sure that has a sweeper in addition to escorts.

• I don't put battleships in the convoys. Battleships are too valuable to bombard. Instead, use real destroyers (not just DE), and, if you want to, cruisers. The landing ships and their escorts will take casualties. It's a war game.

• Keep a pool of destroyers (and cruisers if you use them in landing convoys) in a separate TF. Many times, warships in the landing convoys exhaust their ammo in a day (sometimes two) and are almost worthless for further landing support. Rotate them out and send them to the nearest base to rearm. Use the 'pool TF' to rotate in fresh escorts. If the operation is only a single day that becomes unnecessary.

• If you prepare for an operation to take a single day it will take longer. It has something to do with quantum physics I think. It's just a law of nature.

• Stacking limits: Remember that even though you might not be using the optional stacking limits, islands and atolls (like Wake) have them anyway. The more you over stack the greater the penalties: supply, disruption, fatigue, and I am not sure what else. The supply penalty is applied near the end of each turn *after* combat. If you over stack severely enough your units ashore might be literally stripped of all supply at the end of the turn. This means the following turn they will only have what is landed from ships (or potentially air dropped, but that is usually trivial).

• Having separate convoys for supply is good because ships with units on board land troops first and only then supply. A convoy with supply will ensure that some supply is landed with the first phase troops are landed. Remember that over stacking might wipe out all supply at the end of each day, so have separate supply convoys if the the invasion will greatly over stack the base.

• Naval bombardments are a huge factor, most significantly for the disruption they cause to defenders. Preferably bombard at least one day before, the day of the invasion, and continuing each day until the base is taken. It is even better to bombard for many days before. Multi-day bombardments require careful planning. How many separate bombardment TF? What BB/BC/CB/CA/CL and escorts are available for the job? Where can they rearm? How long will it take for the round trip to rearm?

• Aerial bombardments are a significant factor. To the degree possible they should be conducted daily as far in advance as practical. Often doing so entails some form of rotation so that some groups can strike each day. Try to have as many groups as possible strike on invasion day and on the day of each ground assault.

• Low-Ground aerial attacks *with trained crews* in AB/F/FB types can be very effective but take significant casualties. If available plan their use wisely.

• If carrier aircraft are available for ground strikes they might have limited sorties available so plan accordingly. Dive bombing exposes DB to significant ground fire. Consider having DB operate at 5,000 ft (with the TB) so they do not dive bomb, unless opposition is light.

• A 100% prepared floating reserve is a good idea albeit often a luxury. It makes sense when you have enough troops but over stacking would be massive if you landed them all. If you have a floating reserve and you decide to land it, you most likely will need to pull off a similar stacking value of troops at the same time (to avoid the massive over stacking that caused you to hold the reserve back in the first place).

• Landing on A) islands of size 1 or 2, and B) on terrain type Atoll automatically initiate a shock attack when the landing is made by the non-owner of the base. The shock attack is triggered unit by unit. So, when 99% of a unit lands on turn 1 that unit shock attacks. When the remaining 1% of that unit lands on turn 2 the unit again shock attacks. Such consecutive shock attacks have thoroughly shattered many units which could have recovered if they had only stayed in place without attacking. Remember this!

• So you landed on day 1, your units shock attacked but failed to take the base. Now what?

• Make certain that any convoys which are still unloading are ONLY unloading supply. If any convoys are still unloading troops order them to stop. If the troops are shore are short of supply then keep landing supply of course, but remove any ships with units still on board to separate convoys that are order not to unload.

• If you are in over stacking watch carefully how much supply is burned on non-assault days. If you are over stacked so much that all supply is burned at the end of each day, then be careful not land too much each day or it will all be gone too soon. Also, consider pulling off the most battered unit(s) to the remaining units can recover to continue the fight.

• Continue naval bombardments, daily or as close to it as possible.

• Continue aerial bombardments. Carefully husband low-ground attacks and carrier sorties so you will have them when you need them.

• Wait until your troops ashore are AT MOST in the low teens for disruption. Single digits is better! Fatigue will always be a good deal higher; 20's or 30's is best, but you might have some units in the 40's or 50's. Those levels (and certainly above) will have an impact so get it down if you can (by waiting and having the units well supplied).

• When you attack again use Deliberate attacks, not Shock attacks. Do not shatter your sword!

• The advice above about when units are ready to attack applies continuously. But after you get a feel for things you will notice when the defense is weak enough to relax those criteria and attack at higher disruption levels. Remember that higher disruption means a unit is less effective, will cause less harm to the enemy, and will itself take higher casualties. This is all relative to the defenses.

• Rotating attacks can be very effective if you have enough units & strength compared to the defense because all the defending units are stressed each day. The concept is instead of attacking with all units on the same day some stay on Defend that day while others Deliberate attack. The following day they reverse roles. Usually artillery units can bombard for each attack, and often armor can attack more days than infantry. Make sure each unit is ready.

• Be aware that artillery bombardments (and ground assaults) will cause those units not attacking to recover more slowly, sometimes at a glacial pace. When your units are recovering too slowly, suspend artillery bombardments (naval and aerial bombardments are OK) and suspend rotating attacks.

• Rome was not built in a day. Be comfortable with the notion of getting ashore, then holding back until your units are ready, then making Deliberate assaults. The results will be good, provided you have tended to the logistics and naval and air support.

Edited: Added blank lines to improve readability.

A very good list.[&o]
Some I had read before, some I had learned playing or from history but some I had not yet heard about.
I am happy that my organisation is basically ready to absorb this with no trouble, I have not messed up bulding the foundation, naturally I can mess everything come D-Day.
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by dave sindel »

witpqs,

Wow, thank you for the detailed information and guidance. This is an excellent guide for me to follow. I can definitely see the root causes of all my failures.
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by Grfin Zeppelin »

Sorry you cant do anything, just sail home and surrender.

Truly yours

Tojo Hideki

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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by Hotei »

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Sorry you cant do anything, just sail home and surrender.

Truly yours

Tojo Hideki

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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by Leandros »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Good advice above. Here is some of mine.

Good stuff, witpqs, and very useful for me as I am planning a similar attempt in a couple of
weeks, end October '43.

Looks harder than I thought, though, but I have already positioned some subs around the island
to see if they can interrupt his supplies.

Fred
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Leandros
ORIGINAL: witpqs

Good advice above. Here is some of mine.

Good stuff, witpqs, and very useful for me as I am planning a similar attempt in a couple of
weeks, end October '43.

Looks harder than I thought, though, but I have already positioned some subs around the island
to see if they can interrupt his supplies.

Fred
I just made some minor fixes and additions (just clarifications) while you were reading.

If troops are 100% prepared then soft targets will be easy. Hardened targets will be difficult, however, and require the additional planning and preparation. Would you have it any other way? [:D]
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by GetAssista »

Rain fire then land tanks and crush them all!
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by dr.hal »

This really is an impressive list of dos and do nots. Thanks witpqs. Yet I can't help but feel it also underscores the need to think carefully about attempting this at all. My first choice would be to by-pass. This is especially true for isolated islands which Wake epitomizes. If you destroy its search capability, it is nothing more than a rock in the middle of nowhere. This is especially true if you own the airspace around the island. Keep a sub on station to ensure that no resupply slips in and sit back while watching the enemy troops grow thinner. Even if the occasional resupply sub or other craft slip by, that really only keeps the islanders alive, but not productive.
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by Canoerebel »

There are many plans that require or benefit from taking Wake Island. There are an equal number that don't require or benefit from it. Wake can be vital or it can be irrelevant.

We can't dismiss Wake as irrelevant without knowing why the OP wants it.
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There are many plans that require or benefit from taking Wake Island. There are an equal number that don't require or benefit from it. Wake can be vital or it can be irrelevant.

We can't dismiss Wake as irrelevant without knowing why the OP wants it.
True!

And just to be clear, my list plus items that others posted are universal advice for landings. I am not suggesting that Wake will be the hardest or the easiest. I really don't know if the OP was stymied in taking it because he is still learning how invasions work in the game or because his opponent stocked the island with T-1000 Terminators for defense!
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by Leandros »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There are many plans that require or benefit from taking Wake Island. There are an equal number that don't require or benefit from it. Wake can be vital or it can be irrelevant.

We can't dismiss Wake as irrelevant without knowing why the OP wants it.

Well said. As I am in Japan now, and have skipped the island-hopping through the Solomons,
Gilberts, Marshalls, etc., my reason for going for it is to open up a shorter transport
route from Hawaii to Japan.

Fred
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RE: Advice regarding Atoll Invasions - Is Wake impregnable at fort level 5 ?

Post by Chickenboy »

Nice lists guys.

I'd reiterate aerial bombardment prep. If you own all Marshalls and Wake is within B-17 range, I wouldn't try to land troops until the island had been bombed flat, the port and airfield were at 100% disabled for a month and you've spent some time leisurely pasting the individual ground troops present and driving up their disabled status. In particular, "Port" attacks will disable/damage/destroy CD guns present. This last bit is paramount.

Daily bombings will keep him from raising forts past 5 too. Hopefully his engineers will be busy filling holes in the runway before they go about building any more MG bunkers on the waterfront. The odd supply hits are bonus and can go a long way to putting the defenders in a supply shortage when you invade.

Take your time. Apply your superior firepower over a prolonged period of time. Constant, regular aerial (and naval) bombardment will really ease the pain when your troops hit the beach.
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