Which units are winterized in MWIF?

[Joseignacio]

In Raw 7.0 are considered winterized

If at least half of your attacking land units are MTN, ski troops (AsA option 65), Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, or white print Soviet units

whereas in the 2d10 table they include White print SSs...

upfiles/16701/4DE6BBC9E76A45BCAA265099708CDC59.jpg

[Joseignacio]

Also, the table says that there is a +1 per "japanese, australian, or USA marine white print" attacking jungle. I guess until the limit of the jungle penalty.

But anyway, Is it per japanese marine, australian marine o usa marine, or more probably japanese unit australian unit or usa marine?

I guess it should be this last one because I don't think there are AUS MAR...

[Joseignacio]

In both cases, is it considered that the limit of positive bonuses the units give is limited by the penalty of snow/jungle or it doesn't have a limit?

I went through the FAQ as well and it's not clear for me.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

In Raw 7.0 are considered winterized

If at least half of your attacking land units are MTN, ski troops (AsA option 65), Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, or white print Soviet units

whereas in the 2d10 table they include White print SSs...

upfiles/16701/4DE6BBC9E76A45BCAA265099708CDC59.jpg

It depends on whether you play with the 1d10 or the optional 2d10.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Also, the table says that there is a +1 per "japanese, australian, or USA marine white print" attacking jungle. I guess until the limit of the jungle penalty.

But anyway, Is it per japanese marine, australian marine o usa marine, or more probably japanese unit australian unit or usa marine?

I guess it should be this last one because I don't think there are AUS MAR...

With 2d10 there is no limit and can become a positive modifier. However, do not forget that the unit must be also be a white print. With 1d10 it is different.

With 2d10 the Japanese White Print gives +1 in Jungle. Same with Australian White Print. And same with a US White Print Marine. And they must be Corps, or Army sized. Not to many of them around.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

In both cases, is it considered that the limit of positive bonuses the units give is limited by the penalty of snow/jungle or it doesn't have a limit?

I went through the FAQ as well and it's not clear for me.

With 2d10 there is no limit. The positive modifier can be higher than the negative, so there can be a positive total modifier.

[Joseignacio]

Thanks [:)]

[Courtenay]

The white print SS being winterized was an old rule, subsequently changed by ADG. The chart predates that change. SS white print units are NOT winterized.

[Joseignacio]

It's old, true. But it seemed to me to be newer than 7.0, after all, some of the problems I have with 7.0 is that it's pretty old by now as well.

[paulderynck]

The SS being winterized is very old. Probably 14 years old.

[Joseignacio]

Raw 7.0 dates from 2004

[paulderynck]

The copyright on the 2D10 I have is 2003 and it shows no SS are winterized.

[Joseignacio]

Ok, what I mean is:

- You mentioned that the SS winterized was probably 14 years old. This is a guesstimation, so I mentioned the age of RAW 7 because it's almost 13 years old and they could be contemporary.

- Now, if you are referring to the A3 size, full colour tables included in the WIF pack, one of them reads Copyright 2000 (the one about land combat) and the other 2003. Anyway, I am not saying the 2d10 wasn't earlier than the RAW 7, I was wondering if the 2d10 version which includes SS as winterized was earlier than RAW 7 and so SS were winterized or not. I think the USSR is overpowered in this aspect when winter comes, and the SS help to balance it.

Anyway I'll check at home if I have the "new" 2d10 and check it's copyright date. But I was not starting a discussion to trash the game in any way but to know this detail which is important for me.

[Orm]

The 2d10 table to MWIF uses is included in RAC. It is the last two pages of RAC.

[Joseignacio]

Thanks, didn't know that and will help in the future...

For example, now that I am going through the tutorials (at the moment I am at tutorial 10) i realized a mistake in it that made me worried,

Overrun naval units either do a forced
rebase, are destroyed, or are captured. It
doesn't matter whether they are organized or
not..

now I see in the RAC that MWIF treats it like WIF instead. The only situation on which what the tutorial says may be true is in Vichy collapse and maybe it was posible through the surprise impulse as well, but the last one was not in the RAW7 although there are references showing it may have been in the past.

RAC was very useful to check that the game is ok, it's just the tutorial. [:)]

[paulderynck]

I think you'll find the two agree and that RAW7 Surprise rules tell you that organized but surprised naval units are rolled for.

About the SS winterized, it was simply a matter of interest, not trashing or argumentative, to show that the change in 2D10 pre-dated RAW7. In fact the change was made because players (or the designer, or both) had found the opposite of your experience. It was the Germans that were too powerful with the SS being winterized.

Edit: Not that the Germans were too powerful everywhere, but could be at places that really counted, like Leningrad and Rostov.

[Orm]

With the winterized SS it was to easy to get a German 'super' attack force for the winter impulses. Many times it got better odds in winter than a summer attack would.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I think you'll find the two agree and that RAW7 Surprise rules tell you that organized but surprised naval units are rolled for.

That's what I remembered, but going to RAW 7 I couldn't find that. Although the text in the Tutorial means that overrun naval units are rolled for, regardless of their organization status, and this is not true in general terms. I will try to post what I found related to this in RAW7 later.

EDIT: I found the text. But as I said before, what is in the tutorial, in truth only applies to these two cases: Vichy and Surprise.

About the SS winterized, it was simply a matter of interest, not trashing or argumentative, to show that the change in 2D10 pre-dated RAW7. In fact the change was made because players (or the designer, or both) had found the opposite of your experience. It was the Germans that were too powerful with the SS being winterized.

Edit: Not that the Germans were too powerful everywhere, but could be at places that really counted, like Leningrad and Rostov.

Maybe the GE are overpowered against USSR in the game, this is debatable. Could be true. But in winter, if the URSS player can put together 5 or 6 winterized corps they can more than compensate the snow penalty and the enemy armor, for example would not have the defense bonus because of the climate.

In general, aside of some scattered actions, I consider this overestimate the real USSR capabilities. I have had like 7 or 8 winterized russian units counteratack in a snow impulse and blow away one armor unit of mine. Is that realistic?

And after a normal scrap the USSR player many times has a 30% increasing to 50% maybe of winterized units, especially after the arrival of siberians.

OTOH, the SS are like 3 or 4 units along the game not countimg the garrisons or national militias, for obvious reasons (difficulty to move and double garrison value). So it could not unbalance the game, just soften some edges anyway.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Orm

With the winterized SS it was to easy to get a German 'super' attack force for the winter impulses. Many times it got better odds in winter than a summer attack would.

GE has only like 5 Finnish, one of which need to be lef behind to protect Helsinki at least. Plus 1 or 2 mtn corps plus 1 mtn div.

3 or 4 more corps of SS (winterized) could make them be strong enough if everybody concentrated in the Leningrad area, for example, but that would leave the rest of the front wide open for URSS concentrated winterized units attacks.

In MWIF maybe you are right, because you can really walk your way from Finland to Moscow, but in WIF it was really atypical because of the off-map terrain/supply, so it was unusual to count with the finnish until Leningrad had been taken which many times never happpened or it happened when the front was at Siberia and the USSR player could not defend it properly fromo succesive attacks.

Then you only have the MTN for defense purposes in exposed areas, and that's too few, IMO.

I was whinking of simply using SS and the handful of MTN to defend the exposed areas of the front in snow.

[Orm]

Consider all the German MTN, winterized SS, and the Finnish units concentrated to AGN. The defence of Leningrad gets close to impossible in winter when the defence should be easier.