Research thread about low production of artillery in 1943

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Stelteck
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Research thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by Stelteck »

hi.
I'am creating this thread to compile data about a problem i have currently :
My heavy artillery production is very low, mid 1943.
I'am not sûre why. I noticed the problem with patch 1.10.00 but maybe the problem was here before and not noticed.

- I have plenty of ARM points (like one million).
- I'am limited in manpower but units that need arty are on refit.

For example :
I created 10 turns ago a high gun divisions which is on refit but is never ready because of lack of 152mm gun-howitzer. The unit have around 55 guns and need more than 100 guns.

This turn august 1943 for example, in my turn report, only 1 152mm gun-howitzer appeared to be built, during normal phase. 0 during refit segment A or B.
Some guns returned, probably damaged and were added.

I'am not sûre it is normal. Maybe it is a feature, maybe it is a problem.
I will continue trying to gather data about this.

For my game i'am considering disbanding some support units to get fresh guns. (Although i will loose the experience and political points are rare).
I have tons of rocket trucks in storage if i want to create more arty support units.
(But arty field divisions needs gun).

The issue is quite similar for 203mm guns and 152mm simple howitzer.
I see no mention of 122mm guns in turn reports. It is strange i will check more.
Brakes are for cowards !!
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morvael
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by morvael »

I guess the entire build limit is exhausted by something called initial build. If you will check turn to turn BUILT number you should see how many guns were actually built, not necessarily during replacement phase itself. This is not logged in logistics phase log, because of lack of space. Initial build tries to build items which are sorely lacking, and also items which might be needed by the units, but the units don't know it yet (like new equipment). Rest asured the guns are built with maximum speed allowed. Of course limit itself might be discussed. Maybe it's too low.
Stelteck
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by Stelteck »

I will check it thank you.
Brakes are for cowards !!
Stelteck
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by Stelteck »

So my turn 114 mid august 1943.

Using only production screen :

152mm Gun-Howitzer : Built 1499, units 116 (Around 100 supports units and 16 divisions). Mostly arty regiment RVGK, i love them.
Active pool 0
Transit pool 6.
Looses of the turn : 2. (456 total). Cause is attrition.

Now in combat report :
Refit A : Pool 12, damaged 5, wanted 172, Added 9, built 0. Back 4, lost 1.
Refit B : Nothing.
Normal segment : Wanted 56, Built 1, added 1.

I do not know where to check the "initial built" ?
Is it active pool in production ?
For what i see i only have 1 production this turn.
Brakes are for cowards !!
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morvael
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by morvael »

Write down the same data for turn 115. Most of those 12 in the pool are probably from initial build.
Stelteck
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by Stelteck »

Turn 115, 152mm gun-howitzer.

So now i have 5 in pool and 1505 built. (And 1 described as built in turn report).

So from turn 114 it looks like 6 have been built. And probably 5 from "initial built".
Another time i lost 2 of them from attrition.
It is a very low production rate.
So there is 2 limits of production. First the ARM points (and manpower), but most important, a fixed limit per type of equipements.

My heavy gun division in refit have gone in 2 turns from 55 guns to 63. The division needs 144 152mm gun-howitzer [:D]

I will disband some support units as production will not succeed.
Brakes are for cowards !!
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morvael
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by morvael »

I'm not sure but I think that's what the Soviets did - they probably concentrated their artillery regiments into brigades, and then brigades into divisions, without actually building new units from scratch. In WitE terms that's of course impossible (no way to merge SU into on-map unit), so you would have to disband regiments to get equipment for use of the divisions (but sadly - not experience).
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morvael
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by morvael »

Also, what is your manpower situation? Armaments will not be spent on building equipment that won't be sent to units, because there is shortage of manpower. On turn 33 of an AIvsAI GC1942 I had 286 152mm Gun-Howitzers in pool in Refit A, units wanted 738, but only 19 were added, because of manpower. There were important changes how the game behaves in distributing manpower - it prefers high CV elements (like tanks and squads), so indeed artillery has lower priority now and may get less replacements than before because of that. But your CV across the board will be higher and that was very important.

Stelteck
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by Stelteck »

I have 100K (60K manpower production + wounded returning + transfert pool) at the start of refit A phase, but zero at the end of each turn.

So the amount of manpower available will depend of the sequence of the turn the "initial built" is performed.
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morvael
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by morvael »

Sample from normal replacements phase:
723 T-34 M1942 in the pool, units want 656, 622 added (94.82%)
0 Rifle Squad (+) in the pool, units want 46560, 2817 built, 2817 added (6.05%)
26 76mm Infantry Gun in the pool, units want 4348, 84 built, 110 added (2.53%)
166 Support in the pool, units want 66498, 750 built, 916 added (1.37%)

622 tanks provide 5598 base CV at the cost of 2488 men (225% efficiency)
2817 rifle squads provide 8451 base CV at the cost of 25353 men (33% efficiency)
110 guns provide 0 base CV (but we know they will kill some enemy in combat thus we give them higher priority than support) at the cost of 440 men (0% efficiency)
916 support provide 916 base CV at the cost of 18320 men (5% efficiency)

(but artillery has higher priority than support because we know it will kill enemy troops in combat).
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morvael
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by morvael »

ORIGINAL: Stelteck
So the amount of manpower available will depend of the sequence of the turn the "initial built" is performed.

No, building costs either supplies (factory built items) or armaments (auto built items). Men are used only when elements are taken in the pool and sent to units.
Elements in the pool are equipment only, without men.
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morvael
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by morvael »

Support has replacement weight 1, artillery 2, other elements have weight equal to their base CV (3 for squads, 9 for tanks etc)
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morvael
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by morvael »

152mm Gun-Howitzer has default build limits, which means (as the editor shows) 21% limit on production requested in the replacement phase. We decided on % limits instead of fixed limits so they would work better in case of grave shortages (but only so-so in case of minimal shortages).

Initial build is limited to spending 250 ARM per element per turn (doubled for infantry class, except cavalry) - in case of 152mm Gun-Howitzer that would be 3-4 elements. Also, initial build stops as soon as 4 turn limit (so 1000 ARM worth) or more than 100 elements are already in the pool, suggesting produced elements are not used (perhaps because of manpower shortages). Initial build is also throttled down linearly below 10k ARM in the pool. Obviously none will be built if units do not want them (based on both TOE desired and unit actual usage). There is also second kind of initial build based on initial build number specified for an element in the editor - the game will simply build up to 0.25 of that limit per turn if BUILT number is below desired number (used to kickstart major upgrades, for example MG42 is set to 250).
Stelteck
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by Stelteck »

Very interesting, thank you.

This system is difficult when you have huge mono unit division such as High gun divisions (or maybe rocket divisions, but i have less problem with it due to low cost of rocket launcher).

The unit need immediatly 144 guns of a fixed type it is quite difficult for the current production system to comply.

Breakthough division have a more balance TOE (with only 30+ 152mm gun-Howitzer for example, and a lots of different gun types) so it is easier to fill them.
Brakes are for cowards !!
Stelteck
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RE: Researh thread about low production of artillery in 1943

Post by Stelteck »

I disbanded some army arty regiment. A good number of 152mm gun-Howitzer returned to pool and my high gun division moved to 80/144 guns and is now out of refit.

The bad thing is that it also stopped completely all 152mm gun-Howitzer production this turn [:D] (As not needed anymore).

I will continue the disbanding process.
Brakes are for cowards !!
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