Europe In Turnmoil Mod.

[ouldy]

HI kirk23. I am loving the mod thnak you. The extra units makes it much more enjoyable. Playing as the axis, the Poland scenario was much better with the resistance higher. The research tree works really well. I like the increased levels.

One question in relation to Slovakian troops. I cant upgrade them with technical advances. Will this become possible in the game?

[Titan]

Kirk FYI, I prefer this mod to the Vanilla

[Flaviusx]

Interesting mod, played it through mid 1941...and decided that it's wildly imbalanced in favor of the Axis.

All those extra turns wind up working very much in favor of the Germans in a way that creates a runaway train. Especially when the Soviet Union is earning a tenth or less of what the German income is for double the time it is used to.

The AI declared war as early as March of 41. (France was invaded as early as Feb of 1940! It fell in May.) All those extra trash units the Soviets start with really make no difference whatever. The Wehrmacht already was at tech 3 in many critical categories. 3 in tanks, infantry, etc. It had also activated Spain.

This is all on normal. I did not deploy any cheese (by cheese I mean early activation of the USA, in particular) to counter it, but would have to do so even on normal. Wouldn't dream of trying this with +1 or more Axis. The runaway effect would be that much larger.

You cannot just hand the Germans a bunch of extra turns like this without making very significant changes elsewhere.

[Flaviusx]

Some followup: now up to August 41 in this test game and German infantry and armor tech is up to 4. They just took Egypt. AGN is approaching the Luga line, AGC is approaching Smolensk, and AGS is at Stalino, with plenty of clear weather left. Germany is chewing anything up it goes up against.

Even the naval war is tipping their way. There's a half dozen subs along the Murmansk route and the RN is quite helpless to stop them. The Med, of course, is now an Axis like. And a pro Iraqi coup just delivered that for free.

Shelved. Mod needs a lot of work -- not ready for prime time. This, again, is on normal.

The intention here to slow down tech was overcome by doubling the number of turns. Doesn't matter if you can only play one chit at a time. You're going to have to do more than that.

And the economics are totally out of whack here with the added turns.

[Titan]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Some followup: now up to August 41 in this test game and German infantry and armor tech is up to 4. They just took Egypt. AGN is approaching the Luga line, AGC is approaching Smolensk, and AGS is at Stalino, with plenty of clear weather left. Germany is chewing anything up it goes up against.

Even the naval war is tipping their way. There's a half dozen subs along the Murmansk route and the RN is quite helpless to stop them. The Med, of course, is now an Axis like. And a pro Iraqi coup just delivered that for free.

Shelved. Mod needs a lot of work -- not ready for prime time. This, again, is on normal.

The intention here to slow down tech was overcome by doubling the number of turns. Doesn't matter if you can only play one chit at a time. You're going to have to do more than that.

And the economics are totally out of whack here with the added turns.

Interesting..Im just getting to the end of 41 and agree,

[gwgardner]

I'm only two turns into the war on the eastern front, after the Soviets did their surprise declaration. I do see that the Soviet AI has built units unique to the Turmoil mod, and a substantial number of them.

In your game, Flaviusx, in August '41, your advance is actually a bit behind in AGC, historically. My point is not to be argumentative, but simply to indicate that it doesn't appear like it's a total cake-walk.

I agree that work needs to be done on the mod - slowing research, adjusting MPPs, probably also with event scripts, such as AI amphibious assaults.

However, I'm still enjoying the game much more with this mod. I invaded France first week of May '40. The French AI moved it's capitol to Bordeaux and thus delayed Vichy - until August '40.

Then I had a real Battle of Brittain, in which the UK AI did just fine; I was not able to clear the skies over the UK or the Channel, even with the additional fighters that the mod makes available. The AI kept up.

I was aiming at a historical start to Barbarossa, so when the Soviet AI attacked early (March '41) it caught me somewhat out of position. I'm still transferring air units to the East, my 4th Panzer Army was not in position, and the Soviet AI has massed an aggressive force in the central region. My German OOB on the Eastern Front is NOT out of whack with the historical. Unlike in the vanilla campaign, I was able to create the historical 4 distinct Panzer Armies, comprised generally of two Medium Tank units and one Light Tank or one mechanized corps each. I couldn't do that with the vanilla campaign. The turmoil mod gives me muchmore of a historical feel.

The UK AI has not done well in North Africa, butI don't think that is unique to this mod.

[Flaviusx]

Germans are way ahead in the south. I'm making an all out effort to hold Leningrad and piled most of the armies there. The rest of the front is mostly divisions and corps and they are getting ground to powder by units with a massive tech edge and were terrain is much more favorable.

There's probably 10 more turns of clear weather left, minimum. More than that depending on weather rolls. This is just brutal. Consider that the Soviets were invaded in March and frankly I've done everything I could to keep this down to a dull roar, but I'm running out of tricks and space. And it doesn't look like Persian lend lease is going to happen in this game, which hurts. The entire southern front is a mess, really, even if Moscow and Leningrad hold into 42. Axis will be spilling into the Caucus both from Russia and the Middle East.

The snowballing began in 1940 when France fell by May and Spain activated shortly thereafter.

[Flaviusx]

And yes, the British AI is terrible. I'm only running the Soviets in this test game. I probably could've done a much better job in North Africa than the AI did (would've dramatically reinforced it, at the very least, which the AI didn't do.) Even taking that into consideration, there are real problems here.

[gwgardner]

Three weeks into the Eastern Front campaign, it's April 14 '41. The Soviet AI is doing a respectable job in my opinion. It is countering my attempts to develop pockets. Panzer Armies 2 and 1 have yet to achieve a breakthrough.

I expect to be able to envelope large numbers of the Soviet troops, but with this Turmoil mod, the Soviets are definitely taking advantage of the unit build opportunities.

[gwgardner]

in the South

[Flaviusx]

In your game the AI plainly dumped a bunch of points in diplomacy to activate the Soviets early...cheese. This also had the effect of dramatically ramping up their production even before the war.

I didn't do this in mine. So the Sovs spent all of 1940 limping along at 20% production and had very little on the table to meet this turbocharged mod Axis.

I'm doing it now. Game #2. I'm also microing the Western Allies this time, no brainless AI for me. Much more satisfactory results so far. The Royal Navy sank two subs on turn 2, which is a nice start. And this time I'm going all in on the diplomacy cheese to get both an early US activation and better Soviet pre war production. Since the AI is doing it, I might as well respond in kind. (I'm also not got going to let them get Spain for free this time, which is a huge leg up for the Axis.)

Finally, I've removed the production delay, which helps the Sovs. For everyone else it is very nearly irrelevant since you can plan around the PD.

As for your problems deploying a solid Axis army in vanilla, I've never had this problem. I've refined my builds to meet the necessary targets, no problem. You simply have to go easy on the upgrades and tech investments early on in order to do this. By 1941 then you can switch over to catch up on tech and upgrades once you've gotten all your builds in order.

[gwgardner]

Not sure what you mean by cheese. Surely the AI has a variety of options, based upon random chance, and/or upon what the human player does.

[Flaviusx]

By "cheese" I mean dumping a bunch of points to activate majors like the USA and the USSR early.

This is fairly game breaking imo.

I just did in my new game. USA activated in April of 1940, and the Soviets in August of 1940 (!). This is even more accelerated than is possible in vanilla, especially in the case of the Sovs, and it's due to larger number of turns.

By microing the Western Allies I got the French to last a little longer, they lingered to July. So the Axis is not getting any kind of breather here, they've barely finished off France and are in no way ready to take on the Sovs. Not sure I even want to play this now, this is a gimme for the Allies and the flipside of the first game where my laissez faire approach and refusal to abuse the game engine created an Axis runaway. I'll play it out for a bit, but very obviously this is a disaster for the Axis.

Diplomacy in this game is the most powerful tool there is and allows you to do very questionable things.

[Flaviusx]

I finished that second game. Allied win in Sept of 1941. Despite the date, the game felt as long as a vanilla game running into 44 or 45. Lots and lots of turns.

Mod is interesting but in the final analysis changing the the time scale like this doesn't work well, imo, not without many other changes. Diplomacy for starters. I broke the mod just by abusing that.

The very long clear weather campaign seasons tends to reward steamrolling, too. Once one or the other side gets ahead, they'll just snowball because of this. That's what happened in 1941 here.

[Rand6897]

This is my first go at this game; played a couple turns on the stock game, glanced thru the manual, saw this mod and liked the changes (especially the turns), and gave it a go. Many thanks to Kirk23 for his work.

I took the Allies with the Veterans setting and fog of war. I obviously made several mistakes but this is the summery late summer '41. I'm a little curious about some of the AI play and wonder if anyone has seen these issues and wondering if the AI plays better with the stock game v. this mod. Please, this is not a knock to Kirk23.

*I left Gibraltar without a garrison for a couple turns early, Italy entered war in December '39.
(This was actually beneficial allowing La Royale to work on The Regia Marina which is way too aggressive with both Allies fleets floating about. Is this always an issue?)

*Poland fell after 4 or 5 turns, Low Countries invaded in December '39.

*France turned Vichy mid July '40. The Brits moved west across the desert taking Tripoli (early '41) before the DAK formed. Meanwhile Italy DoW on Greece and with the help of a couple German units nearly took Athens.
The Brits managed a toehold in southern Greece and a stalemate began as the Germans moved to the eastern front. The Brits have been happy for the most part to hold their positions and grind away at the enemy.

*Franco got gutsy and joined in summer'41 and sent some forces to Greece to be liquidated.

*Meanwhile the Germans sit on the eastern front with 184 ground units building throughout the summer of '41.
(If the jpeg appears, it is clear through air recon the Italy is bare of defenders. They have only 19 ground units left, and down to three naval units. They have lost 2 HQs, 2 tanks, 6 corps, 8 armies. In addition Spain has lost 2-4 units, the UK has lost a tank and a corps. Meanwhile The Wehrmacht is trading sausages and sauerkraut for vodka on the eastern front.)

*The British are looking at Rome and an attack out of Gibralter as soon as Sicily is secured. My only hesitation is what if Germany finally supports their allies which up to this point hasn't been the case.

[Rand6897]

Another shot on previous topic.

[Rand6897]

The Southern Front, remember fog of war is on.

[Rand6897]

And the North. What did Lincoln say to McClellan: 'If you are not going to use the army, can I borrow it?'

[TheBattlefield]

ORIGINAL: rea6897

I took the Allies with the Veterans setting and fog of war. I obviously made several mistakes but this is the summery late summer '41. I'm a little curious about some of the AI play and wonder if anyone has seen these issues and wondering if the AI plays better with the stock game v. this mod. Please, this is not a knock to Kirk23.

Because of the changes in the OOB and the drastic increase in the number of game turns, Kirk has invaded massively into the game mechanics. Such a thing must be very carefully balanced by an adjustment MPP payout and adjustments in the AI ​​scripts again. However, such changes have no effect on the basic AI. The units have fixed behaviors, which are partly tied to their function in the game. This is hard coded! All behaviors involving contiguous attacks and defenses must be given by hand (and without exception) through the offensive, guard, and fortification scripts of AI. This requires a lot of experience and foresight. Spontaneous top responses to specific moves of a (human) player are not to be expected. But I'm sure that Kirk will rework his mod as soon as he has a chance. Thanks for your experience reports, mates!

[8D]

[CSSS]

I have copied , unzipped and still cannot get it to come up in my menu? Any help as to what I may be doing wrong?