GD1938 Game 23

[baloo7777]

I am going to put my 2 cents worth in. Way back in game 19, I learned the hard fact that British Rifle II with RPG and ATG III and IV on the jungle and rough terrain roads of Thailand and Burma, even entrenched and fortified, were no match (more like a speed bump than an obstacle) for experienced Chinese Armor equipped with HT2 and other mobile USA provided equipment. Especially when Arty and US provided air power was applied. And the fighter bomber III and IV was unable to strike fear into these armored units, even when escorted with Spitfire IX's and in the open deserts of Iraq. At the time I remember complaining about the Heavy Tank being unstoppable, and receiving comments about the early war tanks vs infantry and highly experienced troops vs less experienced. I have learned the lesson that this is the way to fight in this mod. I think the direct opposite of this is the game DC:Barbarossa in which a wall of Infantry stops the often fragile Panzers or slows them until they run out of fuel. And what happened in the early hours and days of the Battle of the Bulge with Infantry and antitank weapons vs Panzers in rough terrain? I don't think that could be repeated in this game system even if we ever got to 1944. I still love this game and this mod...one of the best most fun and challenging games/mods ever...just wanted to make my case for a more balanced game.

[cpdeyoung]

I throw the following thoughts out for discussion. Nothing in this discussion affects me more than anyone else so these are just thoughts.

We are in December 1940 in game 23.

Put on your USA (China, Japan, Italy) player hats everyone. The proposal is that the best tank you have available is to be weakened. You will not have HT3 available till 1942, thirteen long turns away. The tank Bombur proposes is the SMK, one of those two turret designs beloved by little boys and Soviet tank designers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMK_tank

This tank underwhelmed in performance in the Winter War, and the Soviets chose the KV1 over it for mass production. Bombur is not proposing giving the SMK as a choice but a tank which models the performance of the SMK. Clearly this will not be as good a tank as the KV1, the winner of the design competition. If you have on a Japanese hat you will be looking at fighting against the Soviet KV1s with an inferior (more or less) tank for 1940 and 1941. My defense of the Motherland in game 22 would have been easier if Mr. Main had the weaker HT2 that is proposed.

Nothing done as a result of this proposal will affect my game 23. But we all will be offered the four nations who depend on the HT2, and so the decision affects us all, and to some extent these nations will have play balance shifted slightly against them.

Let me throw out a couple of suggestions, first perhaps we could use the following schedule for purchase availability 38-HT1 39-SMK(like) 41-HT2(current) 42-HT3. This would give the USA an improvement as the PzIVG arrives on the scene.

My second suggestion would be to incorporate the armor improvement process in some fashion. Perhaps this could be done by allowing the purchase of a technologies for Tank gun, armor, speed which could then be applied in purchase and upgrade. Thus the British could get HE shells in their earlier tanks, the Sherman could get a long 76 in place of the 75, etc. I think this could be fun.

[cpdeyoung]

@@Baloo7777,

I could not agree more. We need to get rid of the "fragile" infantry unit. A fully manned, well equipped infantry division, experienced enough to be over "tank shock", should not collapse when faced with armor.

A limit on artillery concentrations will really help here as we now seem able to pile monster concentrations and destroy infantry. WW1 and WW2 both showed that artillery was a killer, but well prepared infantry came out of their holes ready to defend ground.

Blitzkrieg was far from the final word in WW2.

Chuck

[ernieschwitz]

Following this discussion with some interest. I agree that the tank, and artillery are too powerful in the current build, but it is not me that needs convincing, it is bombur, as this is his area of expertise. I am just now learning how the combat system works, and by no means am I an expert. I will suggest changes to Bombur though...

I too want the infantry division to be less fragile, the tank to be less powerful, and artillery to be less dominant. But... as I said earlier, it's not my call.

[baloo7777]

Thank you ernieschwitz. Whether this mod is changed or not, it will continue to be my most favorite game to play (badly...but still want to play...lol)!

[baloo7777]

ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung


[/quote]

My second suggestion would be to incorporate the armor improvement process in some fashion. Perhaps this could be done by allowing the purchase of a technologies for Tank gun, armor, speed which could then be applied in purchase and upgrade. Thus the British could get HE shells in their earlier tanks, the Sherman could get a long 76 in place of the 75, etc. I think this could be fun.

I think this is a good suggestion that could be interesting to apply. I suggest that these technology improvements be fairly expensive to research and upgrade. It would require tough choices and sacrifices to attain, and not change the play of game all at once or too early.

[Bombur]

Indeed, tanks are too powerful in this mod and I´m aware of this. We actually decreased tanks HP by 20% in one of our last upgrades. The big trouble is that we must be cautions to avoid too big changes, because it takes a lot of time to see how the changes in SFT will influence gameplay. As for custom equipment, my idea is to develop the mod in a way that any country can develop any kind of unit but those countries who developed better historical units will have better SFT´s. For instance, the Japanese torpedo bombers should be better than every other nation, Italians excel in assault guns and Russians in tanks. So Italian can build heavy tanks but they can´t be as good as Russian ones, which, in turn,will have always mediocre ships. So I plan a compreehensive review of units as a whole.

[Bombur]

My second suggestion would be to incorporate the armor improvement process in some fashion. Perhaps this could be done by allowing the purchase of a technologies for Tank gun, armor, speed which could then be applied in purchase and upgrade. Thus the British could get HE shells in their earlier tanks, the Sherman could get a long 76 in place of the 75, etc. I think this could be fun.

While I like this iead it would need:
1-An individual tech tree for each country or
2-Going back to generic SFT´s

[ironduke1955]

Heavy Tank II is OP that is just a simple alteration.

Infantry Tanks artillery and Air Power I do use infantry divisions and they have a fairly high survival rate, what they don't survive is months of continual air and artillery bombardment. Or weak first world war type units with little or no entrenchment level will not survive long against hard power, the meat grinder of tanks artillery and air power will blow through them.
So the infantry divisions of Americans and British mid/late war had attached tank companies AT companies a AA Battalion they were motorised often with half tracks, the core of the divisions were reinforced with hard power so they are not the walkovers that the earlier infantry divisions had been, made up of riflemen and little else. I have German infantry divisions that have 100+ strength points, but they can be overwhelmed by hard power as the Germans were as the Japanese were. You may have a huge force of artillery but if they are not protected from the air then you will lose half of them to air attack in a month, assuming your enemy has such a force. What happened to the Italians and Spanish in Iberia game 23 made perfect sense. Almost pure infantry against hard power. Any other outcome would have been a nonsense. So are infantry broken I am not convinced they are, plus try finding the fuel for a army made up of just tanks.

Infantry Divisions can be tougher but to do this you must add hard power to those Divisions. That costs production and fuel to move them about, like the British in France 1940 one of the few fully motorised armies in that battle, they unfortunately were to small a force without the other elements to fight the Germans, but their infantry divisions were for the early war period a look at how modern infantry divisions should be structured.

[cpdeyoung]

9 December 1940

Here is a situation map after the USA captured Okinawa.

[ironduke1955]

Germany January 1941

To err twice in war is unforgivable so no attempts were made to reach North Africa this month, the United States Navy enjoy the unfettered ability to strike from carriers at the European mainland this will have to be countered.

[cpdeyoung]

The Battle for Okinawa : The Japanese react to the American invasion.

[cpdeyoung]

The Battle for Okinawa : The USN punishes the IN 2nd Fleet.

[baloo7777]

Greece is liberated from the aggressive Chinese takeover by the combined forces of Italy-Yugoslavia-Bulgaria! The Island of Crete remains occupied by the troops of the USA, who doubtless provided the Chinese with military advisors and supplies. But the Greek people on the mainland have been given back their homeland!

Musolini

[cpdeyoung]

3 February 1941

The Germans and Soviets have both entered North Africa.

The US has captured the port of Brest, and hopes to raid throughout the Axis-Communist empire.

[cpdeyoung]

3 March 1941 : United States

The Far East : The USN and land based airpower struck at the home islands of Japan. The strike was attritional, but the Japanese suffered a bit more than we did. Okinawa continues to be the focus of activity. China and Japan wage war on the mainland, sparring back and forth.

Europe and Africa : The USA pulls back to the South in North Africa. The United States must congratulate Germany on the massive military they have created. They seem to be strong everywhere, which should not be possible. The US and her allies would love to have the Soviet Union as allies, but beyond our need for their help it would be fun to see these powers compete. Just for fun perhaps we can go back and try that as a experiment. On the other hand if the Soviets don't want to wait ... have at it!

[ironduke1955]

March 1941 Germany

The Germans advance into Africa the Germans aware that the Americans must turn to fight sooner or later.

The Narrative of the real world seems to have escaped the Americans you do not get to be the good guy if you are the aggressor. Germany and Italy have started no wars with major powers the term the US has coined of Axis does not apply to the Allied Nations of Germany Italy Japan and the Soviet Union a group of nations that despite differing political systems have banded together to fight the British French and American Fascists and their allies. After all you cannot be a democracy if you do not respect democratic principles, one of the main principles being that war is a last resort not the preferred course of action.

[cpdeyoung]

28 April 1941

A dark sort of April as the enemy forces strive for control of the Europe-Asia-Africa landmass. Our forces continue to adapt to an irregular warfare sniping at the lines of communication of the Germans.

The Imperial Japanese Navy moved the fleet base of operations to Nagasaki, from Hiroshima, and the USN struck the fleet in their new port. In China a Japanese division was pulverized by US troops cooperating with the Chinese forces. Taiwan received the continuing attentions of a strong surface fleet with big gunned warships, as well as land based air power.

The versatility of the naval-amphibious force was demonstrated at Casablanca where raiders took the city and attacked enemy troops in transit down the coast road. The long coastlines of the enemy invites raids and small invasions and we are striving to honor the invitation. We know the Germans intend to challenge our sea control forces and we hope to react quickly to any such attempt.

[MrLongleg]

I am out of the country until next Tuesday - no turns until then...

[LJBurstyn]

The Soviet Union was forced to break it's alliance with China as China joined the aggressors in this war. Unfortunately the only way to break an alliance in this game is to go to war with the past ally. So I prepared for it and struck at the last possible moment. I have thrown in my lot with the aggrieved nations in this war--Germany and Italy. And by extension Japan (Japan was fighting China). So far only TEN of my Armies are attacking China or countries it controls. If need be I will add more Armies to the battle.