The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

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The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by Admiral DadMan »

When a ship has an available upgrade that does NOT require a shipyard, what is the matrix for knowing the minimum Port size to use? Is there a table in the manual that I'm overlooking?
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by Canoerebel »

I just went through this process. I had some Essex Class carriers due for non-shipyard-required upgrades. I learned that a size 4 port couldn't handle them, but a size 7 port could.

The matrix was this: Cube the port size (size 4 port: 4x4x4 = 64) and then multiply by 100. So a size four port can handle ships up to 6,400 tons. For a size seven port: 7x7x7 = 343. So a size seven port can handle ships up to 34,300 tons. The two Essex classes that I upgraded are just shy of 28,000 tons.

P.S. I think this is the formula based upon what I was told. If I'm wrong, somebody will come along and make me feel foolish.
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by btd64 »

I read that somewhere, Just don't remember.[&:]....GP
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I just went through this process. I had some Essex Class carriers due for non-shipyard-required upgrades. I learned that a size 4 port couldn't handle them, but a size 7 port could.

The matrix was this: Cube the port size (size 4 port: 4x4x4 = 64) and then multiply by 100. So a size four port can handle ships up to 6,400 tons. For a size seven port: 7x7x7 = 343. So a size seven port can handle ships up to 34,300 tons. The two Essex classes that I upgraded are just shy of 28,000 tons.

P.S. I think this is the formula based upon what I was told. If I'm wrong, somebody will come along and make me feel foolish.

Yes, that's correct.

Apparently various tenders and such add to the tonnage that can be upgraded by a particular port, but nobody knows the particulars.
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by Admiral DadMan »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Yes, that's correct.

Apparently various tenders and such add to the tonnage that can be upgraded by a particular port, but nobody knows the particulars.
That was going to be my next question: Do Naval Support or Repair type ships affect this?
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by BillBrown »

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Yes, that's correct.

Apparently various tenders and such add to the tonnage that can be upgraded by a particular port, but nobody knows the particulars.
That was going to be my next question: Do Naval Support or Repair type ships affect this?

I believe that Don Bowen said they did, but gave no numbers of how much.
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by BBfanboy »

I don't think tenders are involved with upgrades but IIRC enough Naval Support can have the effect of raising the effective level of the port and at that point it increases the upgrade capability. I haven't looked to see how much NS it takes to raise one level - 50? 75?
The USN BFs with 100 NS have a considerable effect on unloading so that is at least one level, maybe two.
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by Lokasenna »

Per manual:

Naval support adds 10 points to the Troop and Cargo load ability, for each Naval Support squad present.


However, this does not improve the total cargo handling of the port. Page 125-126 of the manual. On the other hand, having 100 NavSupp at a level 1 port means each ship can load or unload up to 1325 Troops and up to 1100 Cargo, instead of 325 and 100. That's a huge jump. The daily cargo limit is still 2500, though...




All of that is to say that the observed affect on loading/unloading is a separate mechanism from the naval support assist in repairs. On repairs, it is a similar arithmetic - they simply apply additional repair points rather than increasing the effective size of the port.
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by btd64 »

I have looked thru every piece of paper I have and the manual and I can't find any supportive info for NS helping in ship upgrades. But I think it does help to a point. Installing light guns, etc. But if Radar is being installed, you need a crane, as boots on the ground are not going to lift a radar grid up a mast and put it in position. I'll see if I can find info elsewhere....GP
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by Admiral DadMan »

The Port Size cubed X 100 rule doesn't align with what Don Bowen said here: ship upgrade question which was

Port size 5 = 18,800 tons.

Port size 5 cubed x 100 = 12,500 tons.

If someone has a formula or chart, that would be excellent.
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by BillBrown »

disregard
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by rockmedic109 »

He also wrote that if a minimum port size is specified, it must be met.
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

The Port Size cubed X 100 rule doesn't align with what Don Bowen said here: ship upgrade question which was

Port size 5 = 18,800 tons.

Port size 5 cubed x 100 = 12,500 tons.

If someone has a formula or chart, that would be excellent.

He does mention "an AR" but no SY and no naval support, so that would imply that an AR adds 6300 tons to the capability... or perhaps *1.5, rounded up to nearest 100. Impossible to tell.
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by Zorch »

I can see the smoke coming out of Admiral Halsey's ears when his Logistics Officer tells him 'maybe we can do this here'. [:D]
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by Admiral DadMan »

**Correction: I should have used the term "docked" not "anchored".

There's one section of the manual that talks about my question on page 238, but then doesn't explain it:
Shipyard Size: is the minimum Repair Shipyard size necessary to effect the upgrade/conversion.
When this value is “0”, upgrades/conversions can be made at Ports with a sufficient
“ability” rating
, as explained in the Port Section, below.

Yes, this question is about upgrades that DON'T require a shipyard.
ORIGINAL: rockmedic109
He also wrote that if a minimum port size is specified, it must be met.

Yeah, I've been through the manual and the updates. I'm thinking it's a function of the Max ship size that can be anchored.
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
He does mention "an AR" but no SY and no naval support, so that would imply that an AR adds 6300 tons to the capability... or perhaps *1.5, rounded up to nearest 100. Impossible to tell.
ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan
The Port Size cubed X 100 rule doesn't align with what Don Bowen said here: ship upgrade question which was

Port size 5 = 18,800 tons.

Port size 5 cubed x 100 = 12,500 tons.

If someone has a formula or chart, that would be excellent.

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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

There's one section of the manual that talks about my question on page 238, but then doesn't explain it:
Shipyard Size: is the minimum Repair Shipyard size necessary to effect the upgrade/
conversion. When this value is “0”, upgrades/conversions can be made at Ports with a sufficient
“ability” rating
, as explained in the Port Section, below.

Yes, this question is about upgrades that DON'T require a shipyard.
ORIGINAL: rockmedic109
He also wrote that if a minimum port size is specified, it must be met.

Yeah, I've been through the manual and the updates. I'm thinking it's a function of the Max ship size that can be anchored.
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
He does mention "an AR" but no SY and no naval support, so that would imply that an AR adds 6300 tons to the capability... or perhaps *1.5, rounded up to nearest 100. Impossible to tell.
ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan
The Port Size cubed X 100 rule doesn't align with what Don Bowen said here: ship upgrade question which was

Port size 5 = 18,800 tons.

Port size 5 cubed x 100 = 12,500 tons.

If someone has a formula or chart, that would be excellent.

We have a few recent tested cases, though, where the max ship size that can be anchored is not the determining factor. E.g., port size 5 can anchor an Essex class but not upgrade it without additional help (ARs, naval support, etc.). A size 7 port can upgrade an Essex class, however.

The formula was laid out as port size cubed compared to ship tonnage divided by 100. That's pretty clear to me, and we have no reason to doubt its veracity. The addition of an AR in the example that takes it up to 18.8K tons does not disprove that.
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by rockmedic109 »

Admiral DadMan.

I stand corrected and apologize for not reading the original post well enough.

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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by geofflambert »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If I'm wrong, somebody will come along and make me feel foolish.

I am in possession of advanced synergies. I require no one to come along to make me feel foolish. I can achieve that all on my own.

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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by Don Bowen »


At the request of one of the many old friends I have on this forum:

Basic port upgrade is defined as port port sized cubed compared to ship tonnage/100. Note that this is slightly different from "port size cubed *100 compared to ship tonnage" as reported elsewhere.

Port upgrade capacity is increased by:
1) Shipyards expressed as an increase of basic shipyard size times 10. Note that this is the shipyard size as specified in the editor, NOT the "times 1000" used in shipyard repair capacity.
2) Naval Support divided by 6.
3) Repair ships (AR) which give a fixed 63 point increase to basic port capability
AS (for subs), AD (for DD types), AG (for small craft) and AGP (for PTs) each add a fixed 14 points. Obviously only one of these can apply (i.e. a ship can be aided by only one tender - the one appropriate for the type of ship).

Example:
Level 5 port with no damage
A size 5 shipyard
15 Naval support squads
One AR
No applicable tenders

Basic port= 5*5*5 = 125
Size 5 shipyard adds 5*10=50
15 Naval support adds 15/6 = 2
The AR adds 63

125 + 50 + 2 + 63 = 240

Ship of 25000 tons can not upgrade (25000/100 = 250, less than 240)
Ship of 24000 tons can upgrade (24000/100 = 240 which is not less than 240
Ship of 24099 tons can upgrade (24099/100 = 240 (etc)

Please note that these are calculations I have and that I have NOT upgraded to the latest releases.

Repairs and upgrades are a very difficult subject and it was a Mark One left-handed Bitch to come up with a reasonable formula. Our first several hundred attempts produced horribly out of balance results. Either impossibly quick repair of extreme damage or long repair times that stretched beyond the end of the scenarios. Even now there is an inherent foolishness as the accumulation of repair abilities and/or increased repair speed for a single ship in a large shipyard must represent welders and shipfitters lined up 10 deep around a single point of damage.
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RE: The Effect of Port Size on Non-Shipyard Ship Upgrades

Post by btd64 »

Thank you for this Don....GP
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