Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
Moderators: MOD_Strategic_Command_3, Fury Software
- Solaristics
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:00 am
- Location: UK
Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
I'm just playing a slightly modded 1942 scenario (SU starts game surrendered), and I had Turkey join the Allies (me) late 1945. Problem is that Turkey entered the war in a very unprepared state with a huge, technological advanced enemy on its eastern border and is now more a liability than an asset to the allies:
- Turkish units are deployed in garrison positions around Turkey, e.g. the only Turkish army is in Ankara.
- Turkish units have no upgrades at all
- They only have, IIRC, half a dozen corps and an army
My suggestion is that the "Turkey mobilises for war event" should actual involve some mobilisation. I would suggest that at the point of that event Turkey (and this applies to any minor joining the war) goes under the control of the major before declaring war giving the player time to upgrade, redeploy and recruit before declaring war (or alternatively, the AI can do this).
Also, a one-off discount to time and construction costs for Turkish units, a one-off movement bonus for redeployment, and a one-off transfer of resources from the major, should be allowed to retrospectively represent the nation actually preparing to enter the war (taking into account the actual active fronts on which it is being waged) and the aid it received towards that end.
Currently, it plays out like Turkey has been sleeping through the war and has been hit by a surprise attack.
- Turkish units are deployed in garrison positions around Turkey, e.g. the only Turkish army is in Ankara.
- Turkish units have no upgrades at all
- They only have, IIRC, half a dozen corps and an army
My suggestion is that the "Turkey mobilises for war event" should actual involve some mobilisation. I would suggest that at the point of that event Turkey (and this applies to any minor joining the war) goes under the control of the major before declaring war giving the player time to upgrade, redeploy and recruit before declaring war (or alternatively, the AI can do this).
Also, a one-off discount to time and construction costs for Turkish units, a one-off movement bonus for redeployment, and a one-off transfer of resources from the major, should be allowed to retrospectively represent the nation actually preparing to enter the war (taking into account the actual active fronts on which it is being waged) and the aid it received towards that end.
Currently, it plays out like Turkey has been sleeping through the war and has been hit by a surprise attack.
RE: Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
Given most minors would not exactly gear up for war unless they see it as a need, and in general any nation would rather be kept out of the war than being involved unless it's a very safe bet (see Brazil for example).
I doubt the game "allows" that, but an elegant solution (coming from a tabletop game) is that each turn the game elapses each minor gains an amount of MMPs as they'd do some build ups still in arms. Pratically a peacetime production (50% of their internal product? 25%?) so that when they're are aligned they've a pool of production points to actually spend in upgrades / reinforcing / new formations they'd have built during peacetime.
The later they join the war the more they'd have produced.
I doubt the game "allows" that, but an elegant solution (coming from a tabletop game) is that each turn the game elapses each minor gains an amount of MMPs as they'd do some build ups still in arms. Pratically a peacetime production (50% of their internal product? 25%?) so that when they're are aligned they've a pool of production points to actually spend in upgrades / reinforcing / new formations they'd have built during peacetime.
The later they join the war the more they'd have produced.
- Solaristics
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:00 am
- Location: UK
RE: Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
ORIGINAL: Cohen
Given most minors would not exactly gear up for war unless they see it as a need, and in general any nation would rather be kept out of the war than being involved unless it's a very safe bet (see Brazil for example).
I'm not sure I understand your comment. In the game, the minor moves towards involvement through a clearly defined mechanism that can take several years. I was investing in Turkish intervention for 2+ years, and the increasing percentage value indicates the minor's attitude towards intervention. Once it is one step away from 100% the mobilisation event triggers. A couple of turns later it enters. This process represents carrots and sticks from the major to get the minor to join their cause, and the increasing value shows the success of that process. So it is a deliberate move for the minor which is years in the making, and therefore its military disposition when it declares war needs to reflect this process and be sensitive to the context in which the declaration is made, e.g. in this case, having a massive enemy force on a practically undefended eastern border.
- crispy131313
- Posts: 2124
- Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:37 pm
RE: Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
I agree that some nations should get stronger over time, but this should not be automatic. Nations such as Spain and Turkey were not able to simply become stronger military powers on their own in the existing landscape in Europe between 1939-1945.
I've incorporated events into my own mod which does allow some of these neutral powers to strengthen their war readiness as the years unfold, however it requires interaction with the Major Powers. Some examples of events which would result in new units being placed on the board simultaneously as a minor joins the war are listed below. All of these events happen while the neutral countries are still neutral, and the units will appear as they enter the war either by diplomacy or DOW.
Turkey can receive Lend Lease Assistance from USA/UK
Turkey can receive War Materials from Germany in return for Chromite
Spain can receive War Materials from Spain/Italy to increase her war readiness
Sweden can purchase military aircraft from USA/Italy
Portugal can receive military equipment from UK in preparation of Pro-Axis Spain
Saudi Arabia can receive Lend Lease Assistance from USA to help strengthen relations (I have increased leaning trigger for Oil exports)
I've incorporated events into my own mod which does allow some of these neutral powers to strengthen their war readiness as the years unfold, however it requires interaction with the Major Powers. Some examples of events which would result in new units being placed on the board simultaneously as a minor joins the war are listed below. All of these events happen while the neutral countries are still neutral, and the units will appear as they enter the war either by diplomacy or DOW.
Turkey can receive Lend Lease Assistance from USA/UK
Turkey can receive War Materials from Germany in return for Chromite
Spain can receive War Materials from Spain/Italy to increase her war readiness
Sweden can purchase military aircraft from USA/Italy
Portugal can receive military equipment from UK in preparation of Pro-Axis Spain
Saudi Arabia can receive Lend Lease Assistance from USA to help strengthen relations (I have increased leaning trigger for Oil exports)
Fall Weiss II - SC3 Mod
tm.asp?m=4183873
tm.asp?m=4183873
RE: Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
Couldn't the fact the the majors spend MPPs on minors, reflect that they are arming them with military equipment prior to their entry.
This has a basis in historical fact. IIRC, Turkey had discussions with the Brits about just what kind of support they could expect from Britain if they joined the war. this support wasn't just about British units supporting the Turks, it was also about what equipment turkey could expect to receive.
Better well known is the fact that Franco had a similar discussion with Hitler where he made all sorts of demands in return for Spanish entry into the war. These demands included military equipment if I'm not mistaken.
RE: Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
In addition to lack of production and limited economy, Minor Powers would be taking a risk by arming and mobilizing. These types of actions could trigger a Major Power to attack them as they are then perceived as a threat. Minors had to be careful to be certain of only throwing in with the winning side, and into this decision would be calculated how much aid they could actually get from Majors [would it be enough to guarantee protection of the home borders?].
Therefore, it seems to make perfect sense that if you wish to bring Spain, Turkey, or Sweden, etc., to your side, you must expect a large expenditure in outfitting their units once they are active [not prior to].
Therefore, it seems to make perfect sense that if you wish to bring Spain, Turkey, or Sweden, etc., to your side, you must expect a large expenditure in outfitting their units once they are active [not prior to].
- crispy131313
- Posts: 2124
- Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:37 pm
RE: Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
These events are based on historic events, sorry if that part was not clear.
- Attachments
-
- 26.0.jpg (88.56 KiB) Viewed 119 times
Fall Weiss II - SC3 Mod
tm.asp?m=4183873
tm.asp?m=4183873
- Solaristics
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:00 am
- Location: UK
RE: Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Therefore, it seems to make perfect sense that if you wish to bring Spain, Turkey, or Sweden, etc., to your side, you must expect a large expenditure in outfitting their units once they are active [not prior to].
The issue for me is how the game engine currently handles it, which is unsatisfactory from both an historical and gameplay perspective. The minor is a black box until they declare war, and then you find they are woefully unprepared for the war they just declared. It would never play out that way IRL. The minor would agree to intervene, get kitted up by the major, redeploy, then declare war. What I am suggesting (as one possibility) is that the mobilisation event puts the minor under the major's control, who then upgrades, builds, and redeploys the minor's forces, then the player decides when and if to declare war. My OP made the initial suggestion that the minor AI do all this, but this alternative suggestion would probably be much easier to implement.
RE: Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
Perhaps a new feature is required that would save all (or a % of) MPPs spent by majors on Diplo Chits for a minor country and making them available when they join the war would help. This would provide a pool to upgrade units quickly simulating the "shipping of arms" to them and the delay to train the units first. Having both the full option and the % amount being an option would allow for some play balance to be added to all games (AI and H2H). Points should only be able to be spent on that countries units, thus preventing the Major from being able to get back the MPPs for use on their own purchase.
If a country, like Spain was fought over, the country that finally wins would receive a nice MPP supply ready to use to upgrade or purchase new units.
As Allies, I've spent chits to get turkey in the war in '43 only to find it was not worth the it because of the cost to update their units. I now only counter Axis diplo spending now for most minors since it is simply not worth the cost to bring them fully into the war.
Malor
If a country, like Spain was fought over, the country that finally wins would receive a nice MPP supply ready to use to upgrade or purchase new units.
As Allies, I've spent chits to get turkey in the war in '43 only to find it was not worth the it because of the cost to update their units. I now only counter Axis diplo spending now for most minors since it is simply not worth the cost to bring them fully into the war.
Malor
- Solaristics
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:00 am
- Location: UK
RE: Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
Just as an historical addendum, Turkey was exceedingly cautious in WW2, and while they aided the Allies in various ways (in 1943, for instance, during the ill-fated British Aegean campaign), and received warlike stores in return and as part of the process to draw them into war, they didn't declare war on Germany until 1945. One of the reasons for this is that they didn't feel they were able to successful prosecute such a major military adventure, and used their patent lack of preparedness to draw yet more equipment and supplies from Churchill.
RE: Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
I'm not picking on you, it's just that I don't see this at all. What Minor ever followed these parameters in WWII ? Czechoslovakia ? Poland ? Denmark ? Norway ? Netherlands ? Belgium ? Finland ? Hungary ? Romania ? Bulgaria ?It would never play out that way IRL. The minor would agree to intervene, get kitted up by the major, redeploy, then declare war.
When Turkey did join in 1945, they contributed nothing and received very little. They were not armed and mobilized beforehand.
And if you don't know by now, I'll tell you that getting any Minor on your side is a liability at first. Now you know, lol !
Would Germany stand by while Belgium is being rearmed by the Allies ?
Would Russia stand by while Turkey is being rearmed by the Axis ?
Etc., etc. I feel your pain but still think that the way it is handled is more historically accurate. As an aside, it isn't necessary to make any of the changes that are being suggested here. You can spend 10-15 minutes in the editor and bring all the minors up to strength with upgrades if you want.
- Solaristics
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:00 am
- Location: UK
RE: Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I'm not picking on you, it's just that I don't see this at all. What Minor ever followed these parameters in WWII ? Czechoslovakia ? Poland ? Denmark ? Norway ? Netherlands ? Belgium ? Finland ? Hungary ? Romania ? Bulgaria ?
I just wrote a detailed reply to this and my connection timed out and it was lost ... I hate it when that happens. The summary is that these are different types of cases. The Netherlands was neutral until invaded, and didn't declare war on anyone. Bulgaria was similar to my argument where they were enticed into the Axis via German supply of equipment and training, and then were only asked to join in the attacks on Yugoslavia and Greece (with plenty of German and Italian support). When they were asked to attack the SU, Germany first gave them a whole bunch of equipment including 100+ tanks IIRC.
Any way, I'm not really interested in the historical debate. It makes no gameplay or logical sense for a minor to declare war on a powerful alliance of Majors from a totally demobilised state and with no border defences against those Majors. It is expensive and time consuming to win a minor diplomatically, and the game needs to reward that. I understand it can be modded, but I believe it should be a core mechanic. That's my opinion, you may disagree, and that's fine.
RE: Beefing up Turkey for late war entry
I had this happen to me as the Axis. In my opinion I wouldn't waste the time on diplomacy for the Turks. When we get multiplayer going I might even encourage my opponent to try and get the Turks to enter. Even if fully up to tech their force pool is way to small to even defend the country.
Spain on the other hand is a different matter but they too seem to have a force pool too small defend their borders. At least they can take Gibraltar and have useful ports on the Atlantic.
Spain on the other hand is a different matter but they too seem to have a force pool too small defend their borders. At least they can take Gibraltar and have useful ports on the Atlantic.
Birdman
It's just like shooting squirrels, only these squirrels have guns
It's just like shooting squirrels, only these squirrels have guns