Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

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darkhelix
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Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by darkhelix »

After about twenty attempts, I finally completed the second Tutorial mission, Basic Training: Submarine Operations.
I am a total greenhorn to CMANO, having only recently discovered it, but I'm loving every minute of it.

My final score was 6, which I hope is good. Compared to my score of 1500 in the first Tutorial, which took a few attempts to achieve, I'm not so sure.

After many manual attempts, I resorted to using the Mission Editor to set up Patrol areas and watched the AI do it's thing.
In area C, where it all starts getting complicated, I used a mix of automatic and manual control to hunt the ship down and avoid the helicopter.

I have a feeling that I got very lucky and the two KA-27's were on the Udaloy when my torpedoes struck. I'm not sure if that is possible.

Below is my score.


SIDE: Blue
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
7x Mk48 Mod 7 ADCAP CBASS
2x UGM-109C Tomahawk Blk III TLAM


SIDE: Red (Submarine)
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x Type 091 Han

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
2x Generic Acoustic Decoy


SIDE: Red (Surface)
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x Type 052 Luhu [113 Qingdao]

EXPENDITURES:
------------------


SIDE: Red (Surface + Air)
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
2x Ka-27PL Helix A
1x BPK Udaloy II [Pr.1155.1]
1x Building (Medium)

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
5x RGB-NM-1 [Passive Omni]
2x SS-N-22M Sunburn [P-270 Moskit]
1x APR-2 Orlan-M
1x SS-N-15 Starfish [RPK-6 Vodopad, UMGT-1 Torpedo]
3x RBU-6000 Salvo [12 rnds]


Rory Noonan
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by Rory Noonan »

It may have been that the Helixes ran out of fuel and crashed after their mothership sunk, rather than both being on the ship when it got got.

Also, score is relative, not absolute. 7 in one scen may be incredibly high and 2500 in another may be mediocre. It depends how the author designed it.
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cns180784
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by cns180784 »

Yea same happened in Canarys Cage looking at the enemy losses at the end there were quite a few helo's that none of my forces shot down directly- they obviously ran out of fuel and crashed due to their home ship being sunk. One thing i noticed though was that late into the scenario my Sea Kings AWACS picked up, on two occasions an ASW helo taking off from the airport on Gran Canaria and i'm pretty sure ASW helo's are never or at most very rarely placed at airbases in scenarios by the authors. I believe that these helo's got rebased there after their home ships were sunk, though i'm not sure if the AI would be capable of doing that. If so then just shows how good the AI is.
MBogdasarian
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by MBogdasarian »

I am still struggling with that same issue of trying to sink the Udaloy while avoiding the KA-27's.Any suggestions on what worked, or do you think it was just a matter of many attempts finally resulting in a win?
Cik
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by Cik »

shamelessly cross-posted from general. the post was from a thread about the same scenario and a guy with similar problems.

alright, after a little trial i've killed it a few times without dying myself. my strategy was as follows:

cruise under the layer until reaching the ~border of the box the target resides in.

stop engines
pop above the layer (~360 feet below surface) to see if i can detect the udaloy's engines (passively)
if not detected, dive below the layer and start moving at creep in desired direction, then repeat process.

once udaloy is detected:
start moving in using above method.
ONLY APPROACH WHILE BELOW THE LAYER. keep it between you and the udaloy as long as your engines are running. the udaloy is running at 5 kts which means it's passive-only detection is very good. any speed above creep, or even creep above the layer will immediately get you killed.

once you are within 8~ nm, slow to 2 kts and keep an intercept course. my few non-mutual kill successes were launches at <2nm. you have to be very close because the udaloy is fast and because it can tell the heli where you are. once you are within 5nm or so you may want to dive as deep as possible just to get more water between you and the udaloy.

make your attack furious; that is, launch all of your torpedoes from very close range as fast as possible. attack from the side of rear if possible, as it will frustrate the udaloy's detection equipment.

of course, the best way to defeat the udaloy is not to be a submarine at all, but failing that use the above method(s) you should still not expect 100% success though. in an actual scenario i would just chuck harpoons or other anti ship missiles at it because if i remember correctly it's anti-missile defense is very poor, and it's anti-sub defenses are very good.

in this scenario, the udaloy's weaknesses are:
it is not a sub, so it cannot get on the same side of the layer as you
it moves in predictable or semi-predictable patterns.
it moves at a very slow speed; which means it can detect you very well passively, but also means it's very easy to intercept while moving very slowly.
it has very few torpedo defenses, and sinks easily if hit.

your strengths are:
you have a decent shot at detecting the udaloy before it detects you, if you are very careful.
your torpedoes are very deadly.
as long as you detect him first, you have the initiative and can choose the moment of the strike.

tl;dr it's not impossible but you shouldn't really attempt this. it is an anti-sub destroyer, after all. even groups of udaloy will have real problems dealing with massed harpoon or direct-fire ASUW guns.

i should mention that whacking one of these things in a non-tutorial scenario probably isn't going to be as hard. having a destroyer moving 5kt in an actual war seems like a waste of time unless they know 100% for certain that you are there. and if that's the case, they will be using active sonar anyway. whoever's operating the udaloy probably wouldn't slow the whole battlegroup down, and even if they did you can just come to a deadstop and either whack the udaloy with something else, wait until it speeds back up and then shoot at it, or what have you.

it seems like the scenario designer deliberately made it as hard as possible. in most circumstances it probably isn't going to be as hard to sneak up on, due to the wash of it's own screws hitting the water.
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wild_Willie2
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by wild_Willie2 »

And another shameless cross post :)

It is possible to take out an Udaloy without committing suicide, but this is THOUGH...

Generally speaking, this works more often than not.. Get to within seven miles and launch from within the layer and then immediately pause the game and set the depth and speed of your torpedo's to within the layer and to their slowest speed setting. Once torpedo's are Launched they automatically ascent to 20 feet or so and also go to max speed and thus tend to be readily detected. However, if you pause the game right after launch and manually tweek all torpedo speed and depth settings this will more often than not prevent the Udaloy from detecting the torpedo launch immediate and hitting you with a starfish (because once the torpedo's are detected, that specific location will get hit). Starfish will still be launched at the torpedo's detection point, but even if this detection point is of by several 100 meters, your survival chance goes up dramatically.

W.
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mikmykWS
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by mikmykWS »

We'll look at the pause the game thing. Sounds like an issue.

Mike
Dimitris
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by Dimitris »

Gameplay hint: You don't have to ace the tutorials to move on and enjoy the main game.

Udaloy giving you trouble on the sub tutorial? Play one of the hundreds of scens where it's not.
mikmykWS
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Gameplay hint: You don't have to ace the tutorials to move on and enjoy the main game.

Udaloy giving you trouble on the sub tutorial? Play one of the hundreds of scens where it's not.

Agreed.

We'll look at the gamey exploit thing too.

Mike
PongoDeMer
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by PongoDeMer »

I have had a couple of rather odd results here. The first time I ran this scenario, it went smoothly. I took out all my targets and somehow managed to survive a torpedo being fired at me by one of the Helos. This was probably beginner's luck. It was when I tried running the scenario again that things started going wrong. The ASW exercise was never a problem and the Han was despatched easily every time. It was the 2 ASuW exercises that never ran properly. The ships were not in their patrol areas at all. The second time I ran it, the only contact I had was the Udaloy - located improbably on dry land in Honolulu. The Luhu wasn't there at all, and I ran out of time searching for her. The third time I tried it, the Han was located and destroyed - again without problem. This time, I managed to get the Luhu, although she was slightly outside her allotted patrol area. I then set course for area C. My depth was deep, and my speed was full. I was attacked and sunk a long, long way before I even got there! Perhaps WW3 had been declared?

What has gone wrong? I would be grateful for any advice. Have I (perhaps) messed up any of the game settings? This is odd!
"They said this mystery would never cease: the Priest promotes war, the Soldier peace." William Blake
mikmykWS
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: PongoDeMer

I have had a couple of rather odd results here. The first time I ran this scenario, it went smoothly. I took out all my targets and somehow managed to survive a torpedo being fired at me by one of the Helos. This was probably beginner's luck. It was when I tried running the scenario again that things started going wrong. The ASW exercise was never a problem and the Han was despatched easily every time. It was the 2 ASuW exercises that never ran properly. The ships were not in their patrol areas at all. The second time I ran it, the only contact I had was the Udaloy - located improbably on dry land in Honolulu. The Luhu wasn't there at all, and I ran out of time searching for her. The third time I tried it, the Han was located and destroyed - again without problem. This time, I managed to get the Luhu, although she was slightly outside her allotted patrol area. I then set course for area C. My depth was deep, and my speed was full. I was attacked and sunk a long, long way before I even got there! Perhaps WW3 had been declared?

What has gone wrong? I would be grateful for any advice. Have I (perhaps) messed up any of the game settings? This is odd!

Hi Pongo

Obviously its never great to hear about some bad behavior but hope I can help a bit. In the future if you can post saves it does help us tell you exactly what's going on rather than try and pick it out of a narrative.

1) Its totally possible for units to move out of patrol areas to chase contacts. That happens alot with ASW engagements as the uncertainty zones can be large. If you choose to you can add constraints as to what areas units will search in by adding prosecution zones.

2)As far as the ship on dry land two things could be happening. The first is our uncertainty zones don't discriminate between land and sea. If the contact is uncertain you will see a zone around it in match colors and it could be anywhere in that area. Second once in awhile the actual terrain doesn't match and it appears the ship is on land. This is ugly but has to do with us using different open sources for two different layers. Let us know where you see this with a save and we'll try and correct. Sometimes its just an open pixel or 8 that causes the issue.

3)To learn the game I'd suggest playing in editor mode and flip back and forth or turn on god mode. Its really does you give some insights as to what's going on and in many cases why.

Hope this helps and that you enjoy the game!

Mike

PongoDeMer
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by PongoDeMer »

After running this a few more times, the verdict is as follows. The Han and the Luhu were no problem. The land attack mission - if you got that far - was a cake-walk. However, there was a major fly in the ointment that stopped you doing this, in the form of a Russian Udaloy. This was a very dangerous customer indeed. What made all the difference was the two choppers it possessed. If those things located you, it was ENDEX.

What else? For anyone else attempting the scenario, always move tactically between patrol zones, not at the 20 knot all sensors blind setting that the computer defaults to. Why? because you are liable to be attacked at any time! Also, take note that your targets - particularly the Luhu and Udaloy - are almost NEVER in their allotted patrol zones as described in your orders. The Udaloy is a particularly elusive customer and more often than not, it cannot be located at all.

Onwards to the next training scenario!

Pongo.
"They said this mystery would never cease: the Priest promotes war, the Soldier peace." William Blake
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KungPao
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by KungPao »

ORIGINAL: PongoDeMer

I have had a couple of rather odd results here. The first time I ran this scenario, it went smoothly. I took out all my targets and somehow managed to survive a torpedo being fired at me by one of the Helos. This was probably beginner's luck. It was when I tried running the scenario again that things started going wrong. The ASW exercise was never a problem and the Han was despatched easily every time. It was the 2 ASuW exercises that never ran properly. The ships were not in their patrol areas at all. The second time I ran it, the only contact I had was the Udaloy - located improbably on dry land in Honolulu. The Luhu wasn't there at all, and I ran out of time searching for her. The third time I tried it, the Han was located and destroyed - again without problem. This time, I managed to get the Luhu, although she was slightly outside her allotted patrol area. I then set course for area C. My depth was deep, and my speed was full. I was attacked and sunk a long, long way before I even got there! Perhaps WW3 had been declared?

What has gone wrong? I would be grateful for any advice. Have I (perhaps) messed up any of the game settings? This is odd!

for the 3rd time, what's the distance to Area C when you were sunk? It is possible that Udaloy's passive sonar detected you on the 2nd CZ ring.
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PongoDeMer
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by PongoDeMer »

About 17 - 20 nautical miles.
"They said this mystery would never cease: the Priest promotes war, the Soldier peace." William Blake
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KungPao
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by KungPao »

ORIGINAL: PongoDeMer

About 17 - 20 nautical miles.
well, that's a close range, either you were detected at 1st CZ ring (25-30nm) so that Udaloy send Helo to investigate the contact, or you were unlucky and get into the Helo's patrol zone
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Bert Blitzkrieg
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by Bert Blitzkrieg »

@ Mike
Is this gamey? Shouldn't you be able to set the torpedo to the distance you want before launching it?
mikmykWS
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RE: Tutorial 2 - Basic Training: Submarine Operations

Post by mikmykWS »

Meh...Its a tutorial scenario. You learn stuff by trying stuff regardless I think.

Mike
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