Soviet's Claim on the Finnish Border Lands

[rkr1958]

Soviet's Claim on the Finnish Border Lands?

I know this claim is NOT a no-brainier. If the Soviets aren't prepared with adequate forces on the border with Finland including in the Murmansk area then the Germans by denying this claim can cost the USA a couple of entry chits from the German/Italy entry pool and then force a peace at the end of the turn and be no worse off than had they allowed the claim with the notable, and very positive, exception of the USA losing entry chits. So, I have several questions on all this.

As the Soviet player:

1. How often do you make this claim?

2. What is your mobilization strategy?

3. When, or under what circumstances, do you make this claim?

4. How do you make use of the borderlands if the claim is allowed? Or, are the border lands worth all this effort?

5. If German denies the claim, do you push units in Finland beyond the borderlands?

As the German Player:

6. Under what conditions would you deny the claim?

7. Do you wish for a prolong war between the USSR and Finland or do you push for peace as soon as possible?

8. What is your deployment and mobilization strategy?

[paulderynck]

1. Never. If the USSR can manage to DoW Germany, Finland is out of the war. Otherwise, I consider the risk not worth the reward.

6. Depends on how the Russians are set-up but likely have to concede it.

7. See 6 - the Russians can usually control whether Peace is possible. If it comes to a war, then maintaining it is situationally dependent. One nice effect is that Russian units in Finnish ZoC don't count for the NZ Pact garrison, but German units in Finland do (or should - can't recall if MWiF manages this correctly).

8. Again depends on what the Russians are set up for, but you have to take into account that you will need to take Combined moves to get reinforcements into Finland.

[Courtenay]

1. Never

6. Almost always. Two US entry chits are a lot.

7. Against an overwhelming USSR attack, I would concede quickly. If the Russians don't make an overwhelming attack, fight.

8. See Paul's answer.

[Jagdtiger14]

1. No one in my group ever claims it. I wonder if there have been any WiF8 adjustments to encourage claiming?

6. Depends on the situation...Soviet forces, time of year...I really want the US entry hit (and esp. how many US entry chits are in the Euro pool?), so begin with a deny claim bias and then try to knock that down with other info and see what you come up with.

7&8. Soviet forces, time of year, etc...

[Centuur]

Like the other guys I've come to the conclusion that the effort you have to make by the USSR to get a large enough force at the Finnish border is simply to much if the USSR has to take combined impulses.

And if the USSR is at war with Japan, it has other things to do...

[Orm]

In our 4 player AAR game warspite1 claimed the Finnish Borderlands and Germany allowed the claim.

Our German player said he had planned to deny the claim but after looking closer at the Soviet forces he changed his mind.

It was summer '40 and Germany had invaded Spain.

Edit; The best thing about this is the reduction of resources traded to Germany by one.

[brian brian]

Historically the Axis couldn't break the rail connection to Murmansk. The Soviet economy reaped the reward.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Historically the Axis couldn't break the rail connection to Murmansk. The Soviet economy reaped the reward.

That was a deliberate political move by the Finnish government at start of Barbarose. They declared war on the USSR only to get back the Finnish borderlands and a small part of eastern Karelia, which were considered to be part of Finland. Only after German pressure did they advance to close the encirclement of Leningrad. The Finns flatout refused the German requests to advance further into the USSR. This went as far as refusing Finnish liaison officers in Lapland to cross the border with the USSR when German forces there crossed the border.

It was this decision which made it possible for the USSR and Finland to agree to end hostilities in december 1944.

[quiritus]

ORIGINAL: Orm
Edit; The best thing about this is the reduction of resources traded to Germany by one.

the best thing is that one of Leningrad factory can be railed out.

[quiritus]

2. marines div, and TRS with HQ in Tallinin, HQ 2 reorg with inf in Riga. art in estonian cost hexs sud of helsinky

3. it dipend of optional rules (carpet bombing & oil), URSS/axis strategy, US entry status.

5. yes: the goal is Helsinki


6,7,8 depend on situation

[Centuur]

The USSR needs to build the MAR division. And that means that he is advertising his intent to go after Finland. In that case, Germany laughs (3 Soviet build points spend on a 1 factor unit, how nice) and allows the claim. If the Finns have to defend Helsinki in force, because of a possible invasion by a division on a SCS or a walk over of a MAR, they have not enough units to deploy in the Borderlands.