Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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adarbrauner
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Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by adarbrauner »

Specific example:

location: Shanhai

land units assigned to "Chinese Expeditionary" HQ, in strategic mode

Transports: troop transports in transport mission

destination: Canton, in the same Hq area;

the case: the units are not eligible to be selected for loading in the Load screen.

It has already happened in the past.


So please don't tell me the units have to make the central China inland tour (or worst to be "redeemed" and attached to an unrestricted Hq, not part of the chinese theatre).

Some good Chinese tourist bus services anyone?
jwolf
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by jwolf »

As far as I know you can't load restricted units on a ship at all, no matter what your intent may be. From the point of view of the code, once aboard ship they could be taken any place at all.
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Yaab
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by Yaab »

Load them onto transport aircraft and fly them to any base assigned to Chinese Expeditionary HQ. Some heavy weapons may be left behind though.
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by adarbrauner »

You may agree this is not a good solution at all.
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Yaab
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by Yaab »

Why? I can't fly my Alied Chinese restricted units to India either to use the supplies piling there for my army expansion program. Someone has to stay back and die for the Kuomintang's national revolution and the Three Principles. Such is the cruel nature of permanently restricted units.
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by adarbrauner »

You may agree that you cannot reqeust from people to march 880 miles, and quickly even.

Topsy II piltos as well, refuse to talk about it; they say "or DC-3, or nothing". Even so they're asking for higher life insurance revenues; Divisional commander too has started screaming in the premises and knocking his feet for his artillery toys.

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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

You may agree this is not a good solution at all.
You seem to want a scenario with no constraints, but the designers knew the real world was full of constraints and the PP system is meant to limit the choices available to the player to apply some constraints.
IRL, if all the Chinese armies were ordered to leave their loved ones behind in China to face the Japanese while they went off to India for training and equipment, there would have been mutinies and mass desertions. The Chinese had suffered long enough under Japanese occupation that they knew what tender mercies were in store for anyone left behind.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
adarbrauner
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by adarbrauner »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

You may agree this is not a good solution at all.
You seem to want a scenario with no constraints, but the designers knew the real world was full of constraints and the PP system is meant to limit the choices available to the player to apply some constraints.
IRL, if all the Chinese armies were ordered to leave their loved ones behind in China to face the Japanese while they went off to India for training and equipment, there would have been mutinies and mass desertions. The Chinese had suffered long enough under Japanese occupation that they knew what tender mercies were in store for anyone left behind.
We are talking about a shipping from Shanhai to Canton.....
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by bradfordkay »

The problem is that when you choose to load a unit aboard ship, you can then send that ship anywhere on the map. Restricted units are those units that cannot leave the area controlled by their HQ, so they cannot be loaded aboard any ship because of the possibility of them being sent away from the area to which they are restricted.
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adarbrauner
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by adarbrauner »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

You may agree this is not a good solution at all.
You seem to want a scenario with no constraints, but the designers knew the real world was full of constraints and the PP system is meant to limit the choices available to the player to apply some constraints.
IRL, if all the Chinese armies were ordered to leave their loved ones behind in China to face the Japanese while they went off to India for training and equipment, there would have been mutinies and mass desertions. The Chinese had suffered long enough under Japanese occupation that they knew what tender mercies were in store for anyone left behind.
You, the honorable reading public, may not want to hear it, but this is a little bug... not intentional. I'd better try not to pay attention at it. but in the specific game-war situation I am, this is much bothering and partially spoiling the game. Understand that in this case, the Command just need to transfer the units TO THE SAME RESTRICTED AREA, THE SAME just by sea rather than land;

it makes me perfectly sense and much happy with "political" restrictions or costs in redeploying important units from sensible areas, but really not when I'm force faced to "redeem" or purchase the unit just because they stepped on a ship's bridge.
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

You may agree this is not a good solution at all.
You seem to want a scenario with no constraints, but the designers knew the real world was full of constraints and the PP system is meant to limit the choices available to the player to apply some constraints.
IRL, if all the Chinese armies were ordered to leave their loved ones behind in China to face the Japanese while they went off to India for training and equipment, there would have been mutinies and mass desertions. The Chinese had suffered long enough under Japanese occupation that they knew what tender mercies were in store for anyone left behind.
We are talking about a shipping from Shanhai to Canton.....

I was taking some of your other threads chafing at restrictions into account ...[:)]

The game has no way of knowing where the ship will end up - they can be diverted from their original target port. So they built in the "no restricted units on ships" rule to prevent mass movement of troops that should not be moving freely across water.
You can still march those troops to Changsha and use rail to get to Kukong, then march to Canton (if you hold the rail lines)
Even without the rail lines there is good road most of the way to Canton. If the enemy is blocking you, you just need to get unrestricted units to go by ship.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
jmalter
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by jmalter »

Some ground & air units are 'permanently restricted' - they can never be loaded on ships, though ground units (LCUs) can use ground movement, & airgroups can transfer to an airbase that has the same HQ.

Examine each unit's info screen - if the HQ assignment (2nd or 3rd line down, top left) is 'grey', you can't change the HQ. If the text is 'yellow', the unit is 'semi-restricted'. If you click on that text, you'll find a list of available HQ-changes. Sometimes, there'll be a subordinate 'unrestricted' HQ that you can transfer to, at 25% PP cost. Otherwise, there might be other HQs available to transfer, at full PP cost.

PP = Political Points, a strategic resource that is also used to change unit commanders. Sometimes it's a better deal if you can change an airbase HQ to one that can accept 'restricted' units, you need to have an LCU present at the base that is subordinate to that HQ before you can change the base HQ. It's cheaper to change an undeveloped base to a new HQ, than it is to change airgroups to the new HQ.
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by HansBolter »

It isn't a bug.

It's a compromise made by the game designers.
The game engine is full of compromises.
Those of us who have been using this game engine since the days of Uncommon Valor have accepted it for what it is.

New comers often express frustration with things they believe should have been done differently.
The game was released in 2009 and has had more support in updating and upgrading than just about any other game out there.
However, it is not likely to be overhauled in the manner necessary to satisfy your desires.

If you can't come to grips with the compromises made by the game designers than this game will continue to frustrate you.
Most of us old timers love it for what it is, THE best wargame ever produced!
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LargeSlowTarget
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

The game ships with an editor. Learn how to use it and with a few mouseclicks you can render any unit you wish unrestricted, if you really want to play arcade style.
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by adarbrauner »

Some additional details (and dealing with Japan):

apparently, units attached to restricted corps or armies cannot be embarked on ships, NEITHER ON airplanes; but, if you expend their political cost to reattach them to restricted theatre or regional Command, so then they can be embarked on airplanes BUT NOT ON SHIPS;

This can make a lot of sense, in the way that a unit cannot so freely detach itself from the Army or Corp Command it is assigned to

I also found a naval marine japanese unit that was attached to a fleet command, in this case the Chinese Area Fleet - even though apparently I cannot manually attach land units to naval command; anyhow, it is interesting that the same naval command could have been loaded on airplane (but not on ship),but not its son-unit...
And again, after having reassigned the said SNFL to the higher Chinese Expetidionary Area, it regained eligibility for air transport (only);
Oh and, important, only if the set destination for the transport is within the restricted area (in this case China), clear;


Hans: I think this is yes a little (or relatively big) bug, because you could always restrict the destination of the shipping exactly the same way you do with transport airplanes; is it correct?
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by HansBolter »

I can't think of any practical way the game engine could restrict where a naval TF can go without huge complications.

As things stand the designers could not find a way to prevent land units from walking across restricted borders which leaves a hole in the game.

Restricted LCUs can walk anywhere there is a contiguous land mass.

Many PBEM players enact house rules requiring full payment of PPs to be allowed to cross out of restricted command areas as a fix for what the designers couldn't do.
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by adarbrauner »

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I can't think of any practical way the game engine could restrict where a naval TF can go without huge complications.


The same way I receive the message "restricted unit etc" with airplanes , do with ships; no embarking without destination; no embarking without a "clear" or lawful destination; no change of destination for an illegal one;

walking across restricted borders: forbid the move: "unit is not allowed to enter this location" etc.
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by GetAssista »

Game is OK with current restriction system for the vast majority of players. No better system is possible, because of oh-the-can-of-worms in whatever new system, and no desire for the huge recoding necessary for that.
The minority of players not content with the system can always use the editor to tailor the game to their specific needs. I see no problems here
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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by crsutton »

You can walk shattered restricted units from China to India providing you have a path clear of Japanese and then rebuild them and walk them back to China. Takes a long time so you need to start planning it early. Some games have house rules about moving restricted units out of China as we do, but once all the Western cities are lost to Japan I reserve the right to do this. However, I do not use the restricted units in combat or to block Japanese maneuvers if they are not in China. They just have to make it back to China before they can fight.

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RE: Ship Loading of "Restricted" Units

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I can't think of any practical way the game engine could restrict where a naval TF can go without huge complications.


The same way I receive the message "restricted unit etc" with airplanes , do with ships; no embarking without destination; no embarking without a "clear" or lawful destination; no change of destination for an illegal one;

walking across restricted borders: forbid the move: "unit is not allowed to enter this location" etc.

OK, I'm going to wade in one more time on one of your posts. I realize you're very new and I realize that English is not your native language, but everyone is new sometime, and a lot of forumites aren't native speakers. But you have a way of posting that is off-putting. The vast majority of veteran players don't post and help newbies. Look at the threads; you see the same names over and over. Which is fine. Some people are natural teachers, some people would rather use their time to play their own game.

But approach matters in here. In another thread you asked about daytime bombardments. You began your "question" by cursing, and then verbally stomped around like a teenager. You would have gotten a more positive response if you had said something like "I read the manual and can't find an answer. Does the game allow daytime naval bombardments?" It's an easy answer. You would have gotten that. But you chose to go another way.

You've made a series of posts since criticizing the design and coding of the game. You can do that, but as above you criticisms come across as uniformed and, to some of us who have been in this community for over a decade, rude. Again, being uniformed is OK; being rude is a choice.

So, to look at your comment above, I could start by saying you should save your breath--the game is not going to be re-designed. Doesn't need to be, but it isn't going to happen regardless. If you're interested in learning about the genesis of AE there is a great thread from 2009 by jwilkerson, the project lead, on how the team came to be and operated.

Restricted LCUs are a design decision. They're built in. Just as Midway is not going to happen on schedule, and dud torpedo rates are going to "heal" at fixed times, and the US will get the A-bomb in August 1945, restricted LCUs are in the core design. Some are variable restricted in that a player can buy them unrestricted with PPs, and others are permanently ("white") restricted.

HQs are also in the core design. They do not operate as HQs do in many land-focused wargames. The hierarchies are basically chrome. The 1st Marine Division will happily work for an Indian HQ, or a Chinese, or a Dutch. Some HQ do have certain quirks and benefits (Amphibious Forces, Command HQs, several others.) Some HQs can be stacked and leverage off each other for tactical advantages. But in your post you seem to have an idea that an HQ "controls" a geography in some way. In certain limited ways they do have a span of control, but they don't "own" territory.

So on to the idea you have of "legal" destinations. You want to move a restricted Chinese LCU by ship to another Chinese port. Fine. You've been told that the game doesn't know where the ship may go and thus won't allow it. You don't like that answer. So let me say this: the EXE does not allow air transport missions to enemy bases. The buttons don't work. You can send an air unit to attack, but you can't "donate" supply to the enemy. That's why you can move a restricted unit, within limits, to an own base. Somewhere deep in the DB there is a bit that says whether a base is Allied or Japanese. (There are also country codes observable with a hotkey; these codes are used for all sorts of things by the EXE, beginning with Emergency Reinforcements.) So flying is fine.

But ships CAN enter enemy bases. They need to do amphibious assaults. So if you load that restricted Chinese LCU on ships and DON'T send it intra-China, you can use it to invade San Diego.

But, but, but you say. Just insert an error trap to check that the destination is Japanese. Well, ignoring that San Diego might already be Japanese and thus the error trap would clear, you then have other problems. What if the TF has two LCUs loaded, and in your system one "can" go intra-China, and the other "can't." More error trapping. In the design the game doesn't really "see" LCUs on ships. It sees TFs with mission parameters. So you'd have to rip out a whole lot of DB SQL and re-code so the error trapping can see the individual loads.

OK, so you do that. Now what happens if your restricted LCU is headed intra-China. Good? But the destination changes hands while in transit. What does the TF do if there are no "legal" places for the LCU to return to?

OK, if you solve that one, consider that amphibious landings can occur at non-base hexes. On a piece of sand. Who owns it, code-wise, when the TF is given orders to set out? Remember, you want restricted LCUs to be able to go to "legal" bases. What if it's a non-base on the other side of the map?

The devs have intimated many times that they were up against RAM limits in some ways. There is a huge amount of data carried in RAM on every turn, and game files grow markedly over the course of a PBEM. Ours in mid-1944 is over 12 meg and growing fast. AE is not a thrash-heavy game, which I like when a turn can go to 2-3 hours. Adding data to handle such restricted LCU movement oddities grows the pwhex file/EXE a lot. You may not know what a pwhex file is yet. If you don't you shouldn't be holding forth on the things you're holding forth about.

Same way with national borders. They could have been included, but the team didn't get them done. The lines are on the map (brown), but they don't have any effect in the EXE. Many players add house rules to control movement over them. I've played three PBEMs with no house rules. In one I escaped much of the Chinese army to India, in one I escaped almost none, and in one I didn't try to get any out. Each game worked just fine. But if you want HRs, fine.

But coding in borders would have increased the data overhead a lot. Every border hex would need multiple bits of new data, and a lot of EXE code would be needed to let-pass or not-let-pass on an LCU basis. Some LCUs evolve their status over the game as well, especially the Indian Army. It gets complicated.

So, in summary, you seem like a smart guy and you have an interest. Realize what you don't know yet. The core game system is well over a decade old, and AE is seven from ship. It has been wrung out to a fare-thee-well by subject matter experts and really great coders. Patched and patched. Played hundreds of thousands (millions?) of hours by really anally-retentive players. You aren't likely to find big holes in it. If you think something is "broken" your first reaction for a long time ought to be that you probably don't understand something. If you take that attitude you will find this a very welcoming place and people will help you understand. If you strut and proclaim you'll find fewer and fewer willing to respond.
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