RHS Level II Impressions

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m10bob
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by m10bob »

I like the added details of RHS and Sid has done some tweaking to assist a Japanese AI..I like the fact that no matter where the Allies build a base on the ocean, the Japanese may just show up to either bombard or sink unloading transports!
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Yaab
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by Yaab »

My personal opinion is that there is too much supply everywhere. The stock game does not represent civilian consumption, thus, in RHS, the added industry just makes the military operations too easy like in Burma for example.
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TulliusDetritus
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by TulliusDetritus »

Yaab, Burma is not producing lots of supplies. The AI almost kicked me out of Burma and I certainly was not swimming in lots of Burmese produced supplies. Au contraire: CS Convoys from Chittagong never stopped sending them. Overall I had 20k at most. And there's the overland movement: easy to apply bottlenecks with the supply max draw x thing. For example the Karlemyo base near the border (Imphal area): Supply max draw = 50

And this in many bases in Burma and along the border. You could have millions of supplies in India, they will not get through [:)]
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TulliusDetritus
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by TulliusDetritus »

Anyway I guess the main problem during the conflict was not producing supplies but the logistical nightmare when they were trying to send these suplies to the frontline.
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

My personal opinion is that there is too much supply everywhere. The stock game does not represent civilian consumption, thus, in RHS, the added industry just makes the military operations too easy like in Burma for example.

Civilian consumption is built into the engine and it's invisible. Supply in game is military supply only.

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sanderz
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by sanderz »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Yaab, Burma is not producing lots of supplies. The AI almost kicked me out of Burma and I certainly was not swimming in lots of Burmese produced supplies. Au contraire: CS Convoys from Chittagong never stopped sending them. Overall I had 20k at most. And there's the overland movement: easy to apply bottlenecks with the supply max draw x thing. For example the Karlemyo base near the border (Imphal area): Supply max draw = 50

And this in many bases in Burma and along the border. You could have millions of supplies in India, they will not get through [:)]

i think you are referring to the allies, its the Japanese side thats way more difficult to get balance - has anyone run the game, as Jap, through to 1943?

also, aren't you referring to supply "flow" rather than supply produced? - on this subject has this mod changed (reduced) the supply flow as compared to stock?




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TulliusDetritus
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by TulliusDetritus »

sanderz, Sid more or less answered above. The big picture but it gets to the point [:)]
ORIGINAL: el cid again
[...] trying to support a major army in Ceylon or Australia is (barely) possible - but not if you don't plan well and NOT try major operations somewhere else at the same time. You are forced to make rather realistic trade off decisions.

As for the supply flow, I can't remember the numbers in stock, but Burma - and Indian bases along the border - is certainly a bottleneck.
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by sanderz »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

sanderz, Sid more or less answered above. The big picture but it gets to the point [:)]
he didn't answer the question at all - i was asking about balance and sid commented on process/gameplay

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
As for the supply flow, I can't remember the numbers in stock, but Burma - and Indian bases along the border - is certainly a bottleneck.
ok no problem - do you know if the supply "flow" rules were changed at all?

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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by Alfred »

The supply flow rules are not different for RHS.  For that to occur the game code would need to be changed and no modder (other than the DaBabes people who developed AE) has access to code.
 
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by sanderz »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The supply flow rules are not different for RHS.  For that to occur the game code would need to be changed and no modder (other than the DaBabes people who developed AE) has access to code.

Alfred

thanks for the clarification alfred

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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by TulliusDetritus »

sanderz, I'm afraid that's the million-dollar question: can you transport everything you need and plan crazy operations the same? I'm thinking about full scale invasions of India, Australia, even the West Coast [X(] Seen in random AARs.
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by Yaab »

No need to plan for India. Just take Trincomalee on Ceylon. The game mechanics, pushing surplus of supply to the biggest port, will overload Trincomalee with tons of supply thanks to the Adam's Bridge linking Ceylon to India. I have almost 1,000,000 supplies in Trincomalee by turn 5, pushed there by the automatic supply routines.

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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by TulliusDetritus »

Yes, I was surprised when I noticed the massive amounts of supplies and resources in Ceylon [X(]

1,2 million supplies and resources in Trincomalae + nearly 800k supplies + 1,2m resources in Colombo.

The UK badly need these resources. You can of course gather your shipping and do exactly that... or (what I will be doing) use this shipping to send supplies to Australia (only 400k).

Millions of supplies in the US and India but you want to buildup Australia after all.

Later, available shipping can indeed transport resources to the UK and get supplies on their way back.
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Yaab
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by Yaab »

Unfortunately, that breaks the immersion for me. Ceylon is linked with India by the flimsy Adam's Bridge. No way you could push 500,000 supplies in ONE day over the trail there. Seems you cannot link the two countries in WITP: AE because the code goes bonkers then. All this surplus should pile up in Bombay instead.
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by sanderz »


Its a while since i have been at the early game as allies (so i may be mistaken) but Soerabaja having 228k supply by turn 10 seems high (and so does 58k in Cebu).
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by el cid again »

I run computer vs computer, AI vs AI games through about the end of 1945 (RHS ends
in 1946). These are not very good games - AI is an idiot - but it gives a clue about
production issues.

RHS is designed to feed units in 1944 - when unit demand is maximum - at least historically.
It is difficult to do this and not have too many supplies in 1941, but we have worked on it
for years.

There is always "too much or too little" of something. It is reality. The task of a player
(or strategist) is to get what you need where you need it in time to matter). Also - the game
creates some problems beyond the ability of a modder to fix: an isolated location will simply
build up supplies - it should stop at some maximum level. IRL inventories typically are about
10 days of production (= 2 weeks of peacetime production in an advanced economy). But the
game goes on making supplies, resources, etc even if they are never used. I don't address that issue
because I cannot.

Each location is researched in detail. What is there is modeled. Absent errors in the data,
there are still structural problems: supplies should not include avgas, vehicle fuel or ammunition - but
they do. So supplies include everything - literally: gravel, crushed coral, food from local production,
food from cans, electron tubes, 18 inch shells, name it. Fuel should be POL of all kinds - but it isn't.
If we could make motorized LCU and planes consume fuel, we would be a lot better off. And maybe let ships
consume either fuel or oil - depending on the class. Or even resources (to model coal fired ship classes).
But that is for a generation of software where a new design is possible. WITHIN the limitations of the system,
RHS offers an "accurate" simulation of the economy (quoting the manual, never mind the stock engine isn't
an accurate simulation).




ORIGINAL: sanderz

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: sanderz
have you played as the Japanese at all as i would imagine its a lot more difficult to get resources/supplies etc balanced what with all the changes that sid has made



No. Keep in mind the AI only works for the allied side. Anyway the theory is simple: grab everything you can and ship it to Japan, Manchuria etc. The details have to be the complicated part. I would assume Sid did his homework but I can't tell from my own experience


Actually, practice is a bit more complicated than that. You have to WORK to get
over-concentrated Japanese locations to produce - rail lines do not have enough
capacity to feed them - you must ship in resources in particular - and oil after
you run out of reserves. You should move the easy to get nearby resources to Japan
of course - but there are not enough. Still - it is more efficient to run a ship
from Korea to Japan than from SE Asia to Japan. And - Japan did not do this much -
you CAN go back to Japan from the South Seas with some resources; doing so is much
better than going back empty. Japan operates on a rather smaller logistic base:
100,000 supplies is good for many Japanese bases. So set up a chain of bases, and
monitor and feed them as required - because you don't know where the enemy may probe.
You need to have a real interior line of supply with supplies all along the line
to be able to react (or act) effectively.

hi sid - i think you misunderstood my question, or i wasn't clear enough - i was asking about balance in production of resources, particularly by the mid to late game i.e. overall are too many or too few resources/supplies produced due to the changes you have made to industry production

i appreciate its very difficult to test because of the amount of work needed to even get a game to 1943 - how far have you got in your test games and what did the overall resource/supply situation look like compared to stock
el cid again
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by el cid again »

There is a bit of code that affects the Burma Road. Along it you may get excessive supply (even when/if it
is cut). However, in general, the only way to get a lot of supply into Burma is to ship it in. You CAN do
that in RHS - the Irrawaddy is able to take ships far up river (not quite all the way) - and the rivers do
vary a bit with the seasons. Counter to your intuition, it is LESS navigable in Monsoon - not for lack of
water but because there is too much water! [Currents in narrow canyons sink 100% of craft attempting passage
above Mandalay - but only seasonally] However, along the Burma Road (or its Northern sections - mainly in China -
it is possible to get over 10,000 tons of supply in spite of only secondary roads - and you must to that to
repair factories at Lao Wing - where in theory China can build airplanes).

ORIGINAL: Yaab

My personal opinion is that there is too much supply everywhere. The stock game does not represent civilian consumption, thus, in RHS, the added industry just makes the military operations too easy like in Burma for example.
el cid again
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by el cid again »


Testing indicates Japan can do ONE major invasion - if it is careful. If it tries two it will die in summer 1942.
If it tries just one - it still may die. But it has a shot. The long LOC gives the enemy chances to ambush your convoys
It is also a long way to send stuff if you didn't plan it right soon enough.
ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

sanderz, I'm afraid that's the million-dollar question: can you transport everything you need and plan crazy operations the same? I'm thinking about full scale invasions of India, Australia, even the West Coast [X(] Seen in random AARs.
el cid again
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by el cid again »

This indicates out of date software. Supply should accumulate now at Bombay.
UNLESS you build port/airfields at Trincomalee too high (or anywhere else).
YOU create a new primary base by doing that.

ORIGINAL: Yaab

No need to plan for India. Just take Trincomalee on Ceylon. The game mechanics, pushing surplus of supply to the biggest port, will overload Trincomalee with tons of supply thanks to the Adam's Bridge linking Ceylon to India. I have almost 1,000,000 supplies in Trincomalee by turn 5, pushed there by the automatic supply routines.

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el cid again
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RE: RHS Level II Impressions

Post by el cid again »


If you play AI vs AI the game reports movements of supply (and everything else). If you slow down reports so you can read
them you will see ANY NUMBER of outrageous shipments - rarely (not every day). Most often in the USA, however.
But occasionally anywhere. I cannot fix that - so I do not try. You need to turn on and off the switches to
manage supply accumulations. Do it right and it works rather well.
ORIGINAL: Yaab

Unfortunately, that breaks the immersion for me. Ceylon is linked with India by the flimsy Adam's Bridge. No way you could push 500,000 supplies in ONE day over the trail there. Seems you cannot link the two countries in WITP: AE because the code goes bonkers then. All this surplus should pile up in Bombay instead.
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