Aviation Units and Hex Occupation

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

If attacked by a land unit, there is a 50% chance of the air unit retreating.

Air units are best kept behind the front lines, but occasionally events overtake them and they are caught on the ground with a high chance of destruction.

High chance? Umm, upgraded air units actually hold out very well vs upgraded ground units. Those pilots are tough SoBs.

[Goodmongo]

What I've found is that sometimes an air unit, entrenched with HQ support suffers about 2 damage from a unit moving to attack it. A second attack then knocks off 4-6 strength. And a surprise engagement attack may result in no or 1 damage by the attacking unit. But all of that is expected.

[Razz1]

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

I am just on my first run through with the game and I had a situation where the German army was going through Belgium and an Allied aircraft unit was caught in the front line. It was badly damaged in one turn, but then instead of flying off somewhere for repairs, it stayed put, got reinforced, and then was completely destroyed on the next turn. There were French army units behind it that could have engaged the enemy instead. It did seem a bit odd to me, notwithstanding some of the suggestions here that are saying that their would be other troops with the planes. I would prefer it if aircraft always flew off to a safer area.

A related issue is the lack of designated airfields in the game. What do people think about this? I played the old Hearts of Iron 2 quite a bit and that had airfields (and the stacking of air units) in it. That seemed to work quite well.

They should look at re-programming the AI. It appears the AI is set to reinforce first. So the timing is off.
Example:
If Air unit adjacent to enemy land unit, then retreat.
Then the next programming line can look at if it is possible to reinforcing the unit.

[The Land]

You'd think that in 2016 after c.20 years of iterative development, the best World War II game on the market would be able to handle the concept that air units and ships stack differently to Corps-size land units....

[TheBattlefield]

The concept of the game is now that each unit occupies a separate hex field. In the overall view this works very well. We just have to get used to the circumstance that not only a few planes (or a few artillery guns) stand on the ground. Taking into account the map scale, these are airfleets or squadrons. As a rule, these also have an infantry armed accompanying component, which is likely to correspond to a garrison. And these can, under favorable circumstances, also offer a little resistance. [8D]

[stockwellpete]

I take your point but a corps unit represents around 50,000 men and an army unit must be 75,000+ so it just seems odd to me that aircraft units reinforce or dig in when confronted by such large numbers of infantry. It seems more likely that they would quickly relocate.

[The Land]

It works fine for land units.

For naval and air units, it's an absurdity in both gameplay and historical terms.

[IainMcNeil]

This is a necessary abstraction of the design to maintain the playability it strives for. Stacking hugely complicates the user interface and Hubert wanted to avoid it. There are games which allow it but this is not the kind of experience Hubert wanted to create. It is not a mistake or an oversight, it is a conscious decision for gameplay reasons. We understand the limitations this creates but we think the benefits outweigh them for THIS game. Having said that it would not be an abstraction that would make sense in War in the East.

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

I take your point but a corps unit represents around 50,000 men and an army unit must be 75,000+ so it just seems odd to me that aircraft units reinforce or dig in when confronted by such large numbers of infantry. It seems more likely that they would quickly relocate.

Just remember that 50K-75K men can easily fit into the space of a college football stadium, too. None of these units absolutely "need" all the space one of the hexes represents. And multiple such units could easily co-exist in a hex. It's all about frontage, and the air, while not holding the front, nonetheless is not that much more of an abstraction than infantry units. It's a game convention that really doesn't come into play that often in unrealistic ways.

[TheBattlefield]

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

I take your point but a corps unit represents around 50,000 men and an army unit must be 75,000+ so it just seems odd to me that aircraft units reinforce or dig in when confronted by such large numbers of infantry. It seems more likely that they would quickly relocate.

A defensive air base seems odd, but an attacking corps or army is not? Seriously, the attacks are carried out neither by a corps nor by an army, but by divisions. Abstraction remains abstraction - for all units. The game works well. Even without unit stacking. And yes. The air units are relocated quickly, if possible. [;)]

[mavraamides]

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Perhaps no stacking allows the AI to play a better game. If that is the case then I'm happy to live with the abstraction.

Yes. Stacking adds considerable complexity and overhead to the AI. The combinatorial explosion can quickly get out of control even with only 2 units in the same hex.

I'll take this tradeoff as well. Not to mention the fact that with no stacking you can see all of your units at once instead of having to 'dig' through them to see what's there.

[ILCK]

I have less issue with the stacking than the resiliency in the face of ground attack of airplanes and frankly a lot of support units, having my level 2 tanks hit a rocket artillery unit and do no damage in two attacks makes zero sense same as has happened hitting airfleets and doing minimal damage. The defender should be heavily penalized for allowing those fragile units to come under direct attack.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: ILCK

I have less issue with the stacking than the resiliency in the face of ground attack of airplanes and frankly a lot of support units, having my level 2 tanks hit a rocket artillery unit and do no damage in two attacks makes zero sense same as has happened hitting airfleets and doing minimal damage. The defender should be heavily penalized for allowing those fragile units to come under direct attack.

Hi

If you see this please send me a save turn as although there can be understandable factors that would reduce the defender's losses (especially the location of the target, its entrenchment value, and the supply value of the attacker) all things being equal the tank attack should hammer the air unit or rocket artillery and make them regret having ever taken up arms against you.

My email is Bill.Runacre@Furysoftware.com

Thanks

[TheBattlefield]

ORIGINAL: ILCK
...having my level 2 tanks hit a rocket artillery unit and do no damage in two attacks ...

Sometimes I feel that different game versions have been sold. [&:]
Where did that happen? If your tank has not attacked during the deepest winter, without HQ and in catastrophic supply while the enemy support unit stay in a fortress system, you might have discovered a bug. [;)]

[itkotw2000]

Air units can absolutely defend a hex for a short amount of time. Many times I have used air units to plug gaps in my line, they act like paratroopers that are always ready to jump (they are always ready to bomb, "jump" into a gap, and move "operationally" because of their movement points). I have used them most in North Africa as axis. My units will make a dash, but one unit might move too far and leave an empty hex. In comes the air unit ready to plug the gap. They will get attacked, sure, but they can hold out against an attack or two. Next turn, the air unit can fly hundreds of miles to a rear area and get rebuilt. The air unit's movement points make them very useful.

Clearly, we can't add stacking, but maybe air units could be restricted to be within one hex of a town, that might reduce some of the gamey-ness. This might require a boost in flying range to keep the planes in the fight.

So many things in this game are abstracted to maintain playability, I don't think there is much we can do with planes. As others have posted , this game is primarily for casual gamers, so it is not ever going to be too complicated or stress realism.

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: itkotw

Clearly, we can't add stacking, but maybe air units could be restricted to be within one hex of a town, that might reduce some of the gamey-ness. This might require a boost in flying range to keep the planes in the fight.

So many things in this game are abstracted to maintain playability, I don't think there is much we can do with planes. As others have posted , this game is primarily for casual gamers, so it is not ever going to be too complicated or stress realism.

Problem there is that many towns that contain airfields are not represented on the map. There are many good-sized towns or cities in a given hex.

[Hartmann]

Am I the only one who doesn't like stacking out of principle? I hate all games with stacking simply because stacked counters tend to look so ugly.

[Rosseau]

It's been this way with stacking/air since day-one of the series, so get used to it [;)]

Against the AI, I cannot remember many air units being attacked. But easy enough to test out hot seat, or mod in the editor to lower their resiliency as needed. I see Fighters taking plenty of losses during air interception, as it should be.

[mavraamides]

ORIGINAL: Hartmann

Am I the only one who doesn't like stacking out of principle? I hate all games with stacking simply because stacked counters tend to look so ugly.

I don't like stacking because of visibility. I hate having to dig through units trying to remember where I put that armored division. It's nice to have all of your units visible at once.

And I think the game kind of get's around that issue by allowing you to move / attack / move, bring in another unit, etc. In fact that game mechanic makes mobility much more important than in a lot of other games which I think adds to the tactical side.

[Goodmongo]

And mobility is not cheap. It costs like 75 or 100 MPP per unit to upgrade. So it really makes you plan on which units should have it.