Soviet Separate tank battalions plus others

[56ajax]

As far as I can gather the only Soviet Separate Tank Battalion (STB) in the game is in the fortress at Hanko.

In the defense of Sevastopol OOB the following are listed

81st STB 1 xT34, 12x T26 and 12 x BT7

125th STB 25xT26s

Other units also missing appear to be the 456th NKVD Regiment and possibly the Sevastopol Garrison Regiment.

[821Bobo]

Why in tech support? Including unit into the game or not is design decision not tech issue.

[Denniss]

Were these units actually existing in 6/41 ?

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Why in tech support? Including unit into the game or not is design decision not tech issue.

Well if the game was intentionally designed not to include these units then it should go in Design, but if they have been left out in error, then it is a data defect and should go into Tech Support. However, I am a practical person, and I don't really care where they go as long as some response or acknowledgement is given, and Denniss seems to be on the ball in that department.

The next lot I will post under Design and see what response I get.

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Were these units actually existing in 6/41 ?

That is a very good question; I would suspect so, but, until I can cite a definitive, recognised reference I am not game to say. I will follow that up this week.

Does the game have a recognised reference for the Soviet Order of Battle?

Thanks...

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Were these units actually existing in 6/41 ?

In regards to Separate Tank Battalions there was only 1 in existence on the 22nd of June.

However many more were activated.

Aug 41 - 50
Sep 41 - 24
Dec 41 Jan 42 - 80

The TOEs in the game match the TOEs in the reference (Companion to the Red Army, Zaloga and Ness, 2009, page 90)

[Denniss]

Activations/creations are up to the player - starting setup may only hold units moved from far East or created from existing units (like these naval units formed from sailors and other surplus marine personnell).

[56ajax]

Thanks, I knew/suspected as such.

I dont think any player would bother spending 150 admin points to create them, and even if they did the production system or pools is insufficient to equip them.

Goodness knows what the Russians did back in 41.

[Hagar]

Hopefully this will shed some light on the matter:

Weird and Wonderful World of Soviet Tankovy
By Denis Kosta

The virtual annihilation of the Soviet armoured forces in 1941 led to drastic changes to the Soviet armoured forces. With only small numbers of tanks left in the inventory, the Soviets did away with their tank divisions and replaced them with tank brigades with ever smaller numbers of machines assigned to them. Even the new tank corps were actually closer to the size of a standard division than a traditional corps.

The new tank brigades had their establishment changed a number of times. The first brigades authorised in August 1941 had 93 tanks in 3 battalions. The 3 battalions included two light tank battalions and a third with a mixture of heavy and medium tanks. Yet in August 1941 these brigades were reduced to 67 tanks. In January 1942, tank brigades were authorised at 46 tanks and in February 1942, tank brigades of 27 tanks were authorised.

1941 also saw the introduction of the Separate Tank Regiments with a theoretical establishment of 2 companies of medium tanks and one of light tanks. These units were to be assigned where required and were mainly to be used for infantry support. The authorised strength for these formations was 36 tanks including 5 heavy, 11 medium and 20 light tanks.

By mid 1942, the existing brigade structure was considered inefficient and a new structure was introduced. Each brigade was to have a total of 2 battalions, one with 2 medium tank companies and the second with 1 medium and 2 light tank companies.

Furthermore in 1943 the organisation was changed yet again with 3 tank battalions each with 2 medium tank companies for a total of 65 tanks. This became the standard organisation in terms of tanks for the rest of the war though in practice some units continued with older style organisations.

While Stavka authorised the above formal organisations, the situation at the front resulted in tank units using whatever machines were available. This resulted in odd assortments of tanks grouped together and in some instances tank units were equipped with more than the authorised number of vehicles.

In addition, tank formations were often used to the point where they had no machines operational. With tanks being urgently required they were also issued as they were available. This was especially the case in early 1942 where units were thrown into both defensive and offensive operations in a bid to turn the tide of the war.

The tendency to use tank formations until they were truly exhausted also led to entire corps being reduced to the size of companies. A famous case was that of Popov’s Mobile Group which fought near Kharkov in early 1943. This formation was originally composed of four Tank Corps (3rd, 4th, 10th and 18th tank corps). The formation began 1943 completely under strength with 212 tanks assigned to it and by the end of February it was down to 50 tanks of various sorts before it was destroyed in Mannstein’s infamous assault on Kharkov.

Mixed Tankovy Company
As a result of intense fighting and lack of replacements, Soviet brigades and sometimes entire corps were often reduced to the size of a single company or even less with a disparate combination of machines. With a lack of replacements, tank units used whatever machines they could.

[821Bobo]

I dont think any player would bother spending 150 admin points to create them

Actually it is very well worth building some tank battalions. In 41 you have enough admin points and the battalions convert later to regiments(building regiment cost 2 APs)/

The same applies to TD companies.

[Stelteck]

TD compagnies upgrade to better thing ?? I created some but with 4 elements i was not very optimistic for their cost efficiency.

Great news !!!!

[morvael]

Looking at old data from 1.08.05 I see:

[414] 41 TD Battery -> [248] 43 Light SU Regiment

They are indeed not really cost effective, and being small little of their accumulated experience will carry over once they will be flooded with new elements upon upgrade. But tank battalions are IMHO worth it, you can put some 2500+ tanks on the frontline this way, IMHO that will have some effect in combat during the early war. Of course in later stages of the war they (now in the form of regiments) will have to be disbanded, as T-34 M1944 production is smaller, and the needs of all tank, mech and cavalry corps are huge.

[821Bobo]

Why not cost effective? You will get the regiments from TD companies. You will save some points.

Regarding tank battalions you don't have to build 150. Personally I am building just enough to get 1 per CC.

[morvael]

Yes, but you'll spend precious APs in 1941/42 to get 4-element SUs. CV you get from these is minimal, effect in combat too. So it's freezing those APs until SU regiments come.

Early CC may really need tank battalions, but later (with 140+ tanks) do not. I built one per army as well.

[821Bobo]

What precious APs in 41? With the multiple 150 AP boosts I have overflow and I am building divisions for 40(or 20).

Also you get the wins for them and when 43 comes suddenly you have bunch of Guard regiments. If you think long term it is worth.

[morvael]

Aren't they shattering easily? Also, if they are sent to battle, they occupy one of a limited number of slots. I'd rather see a stronger unit there, like sappers or tank battalion. I'd prefer building rifle divisions for 40, than these midgets.

[821Bobo]

40 APs for 20 TD coy + 20 tank battalions isn't really that much. Agree with the limited slots but it is trade off between short and long term gain. Can't really say about shattering, its long time I played Soviets but will pay attention in my current games. I am using the TD coys only during blizzard so they gain victories. They probably can't survive summer of 42 in front line duty.

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Why not cost effective? You will get the regiments from TD companies. You will save some points.

Regarding tank battalions you don't have to build 150. Personally I am building just enough to get 1 per CC.

In my current game we are playing a more historical game (he doesn't do a 'Pelton' and I dont run away amongst other rules) and I just saw in the historical record that was approx how many they built. I will probably build about 20 or so....

Historically nearly all were upgraded/disbanded by late 44