Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

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OxfordGuy3
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Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by OxfordGuy3 »

Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point? Always liked that limitation in Commander Europe at War
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DeriKuk
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by DeriKuk »

Manpower . . . yes! There has to be a way that this can be modeled in the game. A single measure (MPP) is simply too crude, especially when - for a particular power - that measure is fungible. Drafting soldiers to the front, like with Barbarossa, removes civilian workers from the MPP-generating economy; and as you lose more of them, they become irreplaceable. The game can be improved to reflect the very STRATEGIC matter of the economies of the powers.
Hartmann
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by Hartmann »

While we can't "see" manpower, it is in the game in the guise of hard build limits.
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OxfordGuy3
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by OxfordGuy3 »

ORIGINAL: Hartmann

While we can't "see" manpower, it is in the game in the guise of hard build limits.

That's not the same as (as long as you have enough MPPs) you can always rebuild destroyed units, and at the same quality as early in the war, even if you've taken massive losses
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Hartmann
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by Hartmann »

ORIGINAL: oxford_guy

ORIGINAL: Hartmann

While we can't "see" manpower, it is in the game in the guise of hard build limits.

That's not the same as (as long as you have enough MPPs) you can always rebuild destroyed units, and at the same quality as early in the war, even if you've taken massive losses

Certainly you're right that it's not exactly the same and as accurately modeled as if manpower were its own separate variable. I personally actually miss OIL as a separate resource (more than manpower). In this game, MPPs have to do ALL the work - it's very abstracted and it shows. On the other hand, it's an essential part of the particular charm of the game that it intentionally doesn't indulge too much in all things supply, diplomacy, research, production etc. In other games, this often shifts the focus too much on the micromanagement of all kinds of stuff while the actual fighting takes a backseat.
ILCK
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by ILCK »

Not sure what manpower really buys you. No one ran out of people. The Russian burned up people at a ferocious rate but their industry never suffered.

Yes, by the end the Germans were scraping the bottom of the barrel but that is reflect in an inability, via MPP, to buy more units or replenish them.
Eparxos
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by Eparxos »

Mpps and fixed unit build pools cannot amend for the drop of the quality of the new recruits late in the war.
It can be simpler than adding manpower. Just have the game count destroyed strength points (not units) of each nation and after a certain limit have this nation take a net morale penalty or NU drop, or make units +X% more expensive, or penalise the MPP production. There are many options that don't include having the player manage one more stat.
Just have a warning pop up screen when you (or another nation)is closing up to the limit.

Also, I would love to have the graph with losses depicting strength losses rather than units.
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by ILCK »

ORIGINAL: Eparxos

Mpps and fixed unit build pools cannot amend for the drop of the quality of the new recruits late in the war.
It can be simpler than adding manpower. Just have the game count destroyed strength points (not units) of each nation and after a certain limit have this nation take a net morale penalty or NU drop, or make units +X% more expensive, or penalise the MPP production. There are many options that don't include having the player manage one more stat.
Just have a warning pop up screen when you (or another nation)is closing up to the limit.

Also, I would love to have the graph with losses depicting strength losses rather than units.

Again, only Germany was suffering this issue. By late 1944/45 they will most likely have:
1. Drop in National morale anyway - loss of objectives and lost units.
2. Loss in MPP
3. Loss of experienced units.

Net effect is they will have fewer and worse units in the field which is exactly what one would expect.
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by sPzAbt653 »

I would like to see Manpower and Oil included, but as options [yes, more intense programming!]. Experienced players might like to have these, but others may not like managing them so much. I also played Commander: Europe at War for a few months and enjoyed juggling Manpower levels and Oil Consumption, both of which were strategic considerations for all countries involved.

And if implemented, please no half measures or kluges that wouldn't represent this fine game well, just give us Manpower and Oil [;)]

And if this happens, please don't give the game some obscure name like 'SC: Gold Edition' or 'SC: Master of Europe', blah, blah. Make it simple to understand - SC 4 !
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Meteor2
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by Meteor2 »

Maybe a new balancing is needed then, but the concept of oil and manpower is very interessting, indeed.
The Land
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by The Land »

Personally I do miss manpower. The tradeoff between manpower-intense and industry-intense methods was a very real and strategically important one in both World Wars historically. And it's simple to implement in game terms with one general resource. It also helps emphasise the difference between the different Powers: the Red Army can spam out Corps because they will never run out of men, while the Western Allies cannot; and Germany has to be very careful with its limited manpower stock, regardless of how much of Europe it holds.

Oil, not so much. Yes, it was important - vital - historically but it's easier to genericise into overall "industrial capacity". Particularly as the game already has an adequately complex supply system.
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sPzAbt653
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Oil, not so much. Yes, it was important - vital - historically but it's easier to genericise into overall "industrial capacity".
But the Industrial Capacity doesn't reflect that the Luftwaffe didn't fly and the Panzers didn't move because of Oil Shortages. Just saying [:)]
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by The Land »

True. But from a game design point of view there is little point including a mechanic that just irritates the player by stopping them doing things but doesn't result in them having to make meaningful choices. If you like, you can view the damage suffered by units as being expended fuel as well as shot down planes and burning tanks....

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sPzAbt653
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Agree on the irritation, but that is why I said I think it should be Optional. After I got used to it in CEaW it was actually quite fun to have to plan offensives around Oil Consumption and Manpower.
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by Goodmongo »

ORIGINAL: Eparxos

Mpps and fixed unit build pools cannot amend for the drop of the quality of the new recruits late in the war.
It can be simpler than adding manpower. Just have the game count destroyed strength points (not units) of each nation and after a certain limit have this nation take a net morale penalty or NU drop, or make units +X% more expensive, or penalise the MPP production. There are many options that don't include having the player manage one more stat.
Just have a warning pop up screen when you (or another nation)is closing up to the limit.

Also, I would love to have the graph with losses depicting strength losses rather than units.

I disagree. That lots unit most likely was upgraded and had XP levels above zero. Now it starts at 0 experience and you have to pay once again to upgrade it. With lower MPP due to losing ground this results in a death spiral at some point.
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by Eparxos »

Not quite.
Loosing manpower has no comming back from. While you can reclaim Mpps with a successful offensive, lost manpower is not retrievable. So for example if Germans get bloodied to take France and loose many strenth points will hit them later now matter. Or should the English bleed early on, it will be something they will latter be constantly paying for it.

Regarding the historical effect, it wasn't only Germany who was affected by manpower shortages.England and USSR were at their manpower limits from 1944 onwards. Had op Bagration not being a total success and the war grinded into late 1945 or more, they would have serious serious issues.
Goodmongo
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by Goodmongo »

Here's another reason why MP is a b ad idea. Not all manpower is the same. It's a slippery slope. And what about rules to use women or concentration camp workers to free up more manpower? Leave it out IMO as it only adds more useless micro. Not to mention almost every war game ever made that had MP in it resulted in the AI doing much worse than a human in conserving MP.
ILCK
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by ILCK »

ORIGINAL: Eparxos

Not quite.
Loosing manpower has no comming back from. While you can reclaim Mpps with a successful offensive, lost manpower is not retrievable. So for example if Germans get bloodied to take France and loose many strenth points will hit them later now matter. Or should the English bleed early on, it will be something they will latter be constantly paying for it.

Regarding the historical effect, it wasn't only Germany who was affected by manpower shortages.England and USSR were at their manpower limits from 1944 onwards. Had op Bagration not being a total success and the war grinded into late 1945 or more, they would have serious serious issues.


Yes but again you are adding a reservoir of points to be used and not changing the outcome. Yes you can get MPP back but, again, by the point in time it would matter the war is over. Germany late 44-early 45 is toast and isnt getting MPP back other than in very local circumstances -- the sheer weight of Allied MPP ensures it. Whatever issues the Soviets might have had in terms of manpower was very limited given the disparity in combination with the German forces - Bagraton runs with the Soviet having a 4x manpower and a just ungodly tank edge.

Unless you can somehow turn WWII into a re-run of WWI where you are waging a long term war of attrition where industry survives but manpower doesnt it makes little sense to add another factor. I am steamrolling the Germans and while their manpower isn't weakened in game terms what I am seeing is exactly what I would expect to see - buying weak garrisons, buying non-upgraded units, unable to reinforce battered formations.Not sure how mapower changes that.
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Without Manpower, the Minor Countries in the game are the same as the Majors. We can keep upgrading and replacing them with no fear. When Manpower is a factor, then you really do want to keep the Minors out of costly combat.

One other point is that when you get to the later stages of the game, some countries can use large MPP pools to replace units at will. This is not historical as all countries experienced manpower shortages and had to make strategic decisions because of these shortages.

Optional Manpower and Oil. [8D]
ILCK
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RE: Are we going to see manpower in the game at some point?

Post by ILCK »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Without Manpower, the Minor Countries in the game are the same as the Majors. We can keep upgrading and replacing them with no fear. When Manpower is a factor, then you really do want to keep the Minors out of costly combat.

One other point is that when you get to the later stages of the game, some countries can use large MPP pools to replace units at will. This is not historical as all countries experienced manpower shortages and had to make strategic decisions because of these shortages.

Optional Manpower and Oil. [8D]


Well if Hungary and Romania each had their own MPP you would get the same effect so unless Manpower is divided up in a way that MPP isn't you wont get the change you are looking for.
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