UBoat Warfare- Is it cost effective?

[MemoryLeak]

I am trying to conduct a U-boat campaign against the Allies. No matter where I put a sub, a Destroyer shows
up immediately. I keep them on the move to different convoy routes each turn and a flock of DD's always finds them.
But if the U-boat was even half way evasive and evaded attacks most of the time would it be worth it?

So this leads me to my question. A sub cost a minimum of 200 production points. Add in advanced level 4 at 20 points per level
and a sub costs over 300 points. On any given turn a sub might cost the Allies 15 production points in losses. So a sub
would have to survive 20 turns to be cost effective. No way will that ever happen. And if your sub takes damage on
a patrol then you will always be in the loss column when paying for repairs. So why buy subs when they can never be justified points wise?

Same goes for strategic bombers. I would have like to simulate the bombing campaign but that too is impossible. I think subs and
bombers should be lower in price, maybe 50 points each so we can simulate more aspects of World War II.

[sPzAbt653]

No matter where I put a sub, a Destroyer shows up immediately.

If you have Fog of War = OFF, then the computer sees exactly where all your subs are. If this is what you are experiencing, I can only suggest to do what I do - turn FOW = ON at the end of my turn [:'(]

As to the feasibility of strategic warfare - it won't win the war, but over the course of the game it hinders your opponent. For example, knock 10 off the other side for 200 turns, and you cost him 2,000 overall. You can debate the validity as both sides did historically.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: MemoryLeak

I am trying to conduct a U-boat campaign against the Allies. No matter where I put a sub, a Destroyer shows
up immediately. I keep them on the move to different convoy routes each turn and a flock of DD's always finds them.

At which game year are you seeing this? Playing 1939, I barely see this but I have FoW turned on.

[MemoryLeak]

I always use fog of war. I am at May 1940. It has always been like this in all of the SC games. But regardless,
my main point being that subs and strategic bombers are not worth it. Some one said that it would cost
the Allies 10 points for 200 turns. 200 turns? How many years do you think World War II lasted? And besides a Uboat
will not remain afloat for 10 turns let alone 200. Do the math. They are way too expensive for their return on investment.

I just think it would be enjoyable to manage a U-boat campaign and strategic bombing campaign while doing the usual
slug-fest with the ground units. But that ain't gonna happen. Too bad.

[demyansk]

This is a good point. I have come across this every time I want to buy a sub. They don't last but I guess that's historical anyway. However, maybe a cheaper price, 100 mpp

[Grotius]

Wow, I'm having the complete opposite experience. Every turn each of my U-Boats costs the Brits about 15 MPP, so each U-Boat will pay for itself in 12 turns at this rate -- sooner, if you count the benefits of having subs as part of your fleet-in-being. I have yet to encounter a DD, and I have FOW on. One of my surface ships did bump into an opposing CL, and they fought to a draw, but my subs have stayed safe simply by moving around every turn -- not raiding the same spot repeeatedly.

On top of all that, the 1939 campaign starts with several German subs on the map and another 5 prepaid in the production pipeline, scheduled to arrive May-Aug 1940. So even if you don't want to build subs or invest in sub tech, you can still conduct a significant U-Boat war, it seems to me.

All that said, I do wonder whether sub prices should be a bit lower.

Incidentally, I'm curious: how many actual submarines does one sub icon represent? Five or ten, say?

[MemoryLeak]

I move my U-boats each turn also. But I never get 12 loss points for the Allies each turn. First of all as the supply drops for the Uboat so
does the damage points it inflicts. So by the time it is at sea for just a few turns, assuming it wasn't hit by a DD during that time, then it ends up
inflicting about 6 damage points per turn. Then it has to head back to port.

You must be using different math than I am because a U-boat is never going to pay for itself. Especially one that receives any damage that you have to repair.

Same with strategic bombers. Way too expensive and they aren't going to last as long as a Uboat without costing a fortune to keep repairing.

[Templer_12]

If you have learned how to use UBoote, you could have an aggressive and frightening weapon against enemy warships.
But stay away from DDs!

It's my experience with UBoote. I don't know if submarines are capable of doing so. [:D]

[sanderz]

ORIGINAL: MemoryLeak

I move my U-boats each turn also. But I never get 12 loss points for the Allies each turn. First of all as the supply drops for the Uboat so
does the damage points it inflicts. So by the time it is at sea for just a few turns, assuming it wasn't hit by a DD during that time, then it ends up
inflicting about 6 damage points per turn. Then it has to head back to port.

You must be using different math than I am because a U-boat is never going to pay for itself. Especially one that receives any damage that you have to repair.

Same with strategic bombers. Way too expensive and they aren't going to last as long as a Uboat without costing a fortune to keep repairing.

i have had the same experience (as GER) - i just stopped repairing any naval units and don't build any new ones

maybe the u-bots should have a much higher chance to "dive" away from the attack until Allied ASW tech gets to higher levels

as for strat bombers they do seem too expensive to waste points on as (GER)

[xwormwood]

You need to train your strat bombers to understand their full potental. Don't forget that they too benefit from HQs.

[Fintilgin]

As the axis in SC2, I would always rather invest resources in taking out Russia rather than gambling with subs against Britain. The war is won in the east, not the Atlantic.

[MemoryLeak]

Yes that is where it is won. But all it is is a slug-fest of ground units. A war of attrition.
No real skill and no variation, just shoot and pull back so you can move another unit forward to shoot.

All I'm saying is I would enjoy some variety and actual large-scale strategy and be able to conduct a realistic
U-boat and bombing campaign against the Allies. But I don't care what some of you say, it cannot be done
because the cost is too high and all of the MMP's have to be spent on the Eastern Front if you want to win.

All you have to do is a little bit of math and you know that the costs outweigh the benefits, by a huge margin.

And the game engine prevents you from doing this. Yes, you can run a small-scale Uboat campaign but it doesn't have
any meaningful effect. And the bombers can't even survive a few raids without constantly pumping lots of MMP's into
their repair.

Just looking for some variety and challenge. My opinion only because obviously the game mechanics will never change

[balto]

To your point about the Eastern Front, the AAR done by HZ(?), he uses the U boats exclusively to stop the Murmansk convoys. He gives you the math on how this was super effective.

But yeah, I see your math and its hard to fight that.

[ILCK]

It is the range of the DD's. As soon as your sub gets spotted they are on it like white on rice. I had the best luck sitting out until the fall of France. The French add way too many extra destroyers to avoid. I feel for the Italians as their sub is utterly dead almost immediately.

The subs need to "dive" more often when attacked to survive but even then the damage they do is largely pitiful.

[Jim D Burns]

Use your subs close together in large groups. Subs do substantial damage to spotted Destroyers, so one sub might suffer when the Destroyers move in and attack, but you can possibly sink a destroyer unit in return in your turn if it stays spotted. While the damage (to both sides) is expensive to repair, the national moral hits for destroyed units adds up over time as more and more units die.

Jim

[n0kn0k]

Your subs will earn their keep before D-day. Sinking transports and capital ships. Raiding is just something to pass the time for me.

[TheBattlefield]

Yep. In addition place 3 subs near the loop to the red sea an four others at the gate of Gibraltar. So you can dry up the Allied unit supply to Africa, sink various excited Allied destroyers and light cruisers and also occasionally plunder some nearby convoy routes. Refueling, upgrades and emergency repairs are available in the Spanish base on the Canaries. [;)]

[Goodmongo]

But I also use my subs as bait and they do wonders sinking the UK CV's and BB's. I've actually won the naval fight in my very first game. I did go with Plan Z. Key is to also have bombers with naval attack upgraded. So far this game I've sunk 5 UK CV's and 8 BB's plus lots of other ships and lost 4 subs and some CC level ships.

As others have pointed out wait till France falls before doing anything with Axis naval units.

[balto]

I am still reading the manual. Picking up on this subject, I also see that a Convoy raid with a SUB or a BATTLESHIP causes a NM reduction of 25 (not sure how that math is for a partial attack). So another 'behind the scenes' thing about U boats that shows it is not just simple math. Math matters, but again it seems like you should use subs as soon as France is down.

Great subject, thanks.

[Dgold]

In my recent Major Victory game as Axis, I placed 4 upgraded subs, 1 BB, 1 CC, 1 CA and 1 Maritime Bomber on the UK to Russia convoy. I was killing up to 90 points a turn for no losses.

Once the Russian fleet was destroyed, I sent out the rest of the German Navy to attack this route too.