French fleet before Italy joins the war - shouldn't there be some restrictions?

[RolandRahn_MatrixForum]

Hi all,

Since yesterday, I am playing SC3 (to be honest: I get constantly defeated [8|]).

I am surprised that the Allied player can move the entire French fleet out of the Med and into the Atlantic - without Mussolini getting funny ideas.

Shouldn't there be some sort of restrictions (like for land units - you can move all units from the middle east and North Africa into the Hexagon, but it comes at a price)?

Thanks,

Roland

[Ancient One]

I'm not sure why the Allies would want to do that anyway. They would benefit more (like in every game of this theatre) by suiciding the entire French fleet against the Italians as much as possible before France surrenders.

[n0kn0k]

ORIGINAL: Zagys

I'm not sure why the Allies would want to do that anyway. They would benefit more (like in every game of this theatre) by suiciding the entire French fleet against the Italians as much as possible before France surrenders.

Watch my AAR. [:D]
Just took out the whole Royal Navy and French fleet from the Med. Going to use the French fleet as bait.

[RolandRahn_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Zagys

I'm not sure why the Allies would want to do that anyway. They would benefit more (like in every game of this theatre) by suiciding the entire French fleet against the Italians as much as possible before France surrenders.

Well, I am a beginner.

So, France falls relatively early - there would not be that much time between the Italian entry into the war and the fall of France.

However, placing a large part of the French fleet to block the German Convoy route to Norway leads to a German fleet attacking.

I regard German units in the North Sea/North Atlantic as more dangerous than Italian Units in the Med (maybe I am wrong - but, as I said, I am a beginner).

[mavraamides]

I do the same thing. Move the entire French fleet to North Atlantic and use it to:
1) Hunt German subs.
2) Raid supply routes.
3) Attack any German surface ships that come out to challenge my subs cutting supply to Germany. Last game I caught a German BB (or possibly CA?) off the coast of Norway, severely damaged another BB and sunk 2 subs before France fell.
4) Bombard German ports. I can just hammer away with impunity since I don't care if my ghost fleet gets sunk.

This way, when France falls my British fleet is almost untouched.

I then send my British fleet to the Med to wipe out the Italian navy.

But I could see a benefit from going the other way too. Attacking Italian navy with French fleet. My attitude is, as long as I'm doing damage with the French fleet which is going to disappear anyway, it's doing some strategic good for my side while protecting the UK navy for later.

[bcg]

This is a flaw with the game, but to be honest, I use the same strategy. The French never thought they will lose the war against the Germans. So why would they sacrifice their navy?

I would suggest that the UK could resurrect a certain percentage of the French navy. Thus if you sacrifice the whole French Navy, then the UK will not get a chance to get the any of the French navy later. More of the French navy lost, lower the percentage the UK gets, in terms of getting any of the French navy.

I have not played the Allied side yet, but this refers to SC2. Depending of the British decisions, there should be a chance that Vichy France actively sides with the Allies. For example, if the British do destroy the French navy in operation Catapult, there is a chance that Vichy France sides completely with the Germans. This would be a nice decision event for the Allied side.

[sveint]

French Fleet losses should make them surrender faster (affect their national morale).

[xwormwood]

ORIGINAL: bcg

This is a flaw with the game, but to be honest, I use the same strategy. The French never thought they will lose the war against the Germans. So why would they sacrifice their navy?

I would suggest that the UK could resurrect a certain percentage of the French navy. Thus if you sacrifice the whole French Navy, then the UK will not get a chance to get the any of the French navy later. More of the French navy lost, lower the percentage the UK gets, in terms of getting any of the French navy.

I have not played the Allied side yet, but this refers to SC2. Depending of the British decisions, there should be a chance that Vichy France actively sides with the Allies. For example, if the British do destroy the French navy in operation Catapult, there is a chance that Vichy France sides completely with the Germans. This would be a nice decision event for the Allied side.

Many things were unthinkable before WW2, and now that everybody knows about them, we can't force anyone to do the same mistakes like they were done in history. That is a constant dilemma for every historical wargame. Example: The French thought the Ardennes to secure against an enemy attack. Hitler gambled and cut of the entire Allied forces. Today NOBODY would leave the Ardennes unprotected, and yet this was the most important key to the German victory against france.

I would go the Twillight Struggle way. Allow something, but add something bad to it. Yes you can of course move your entire French Fleet out of the Med Sea, bud if you do, there will be a civil uproar in Southern France and the French North African protectorates, so say good bay to x% National Morale or y MPPs because of civil unrest.

More or less something like what Bill did with the BEF Decition Event.

[n0kn0k]

ORIGINAL: sveint

French Fleet losses should make them surrender faster (affect their national morale).

It does lower National Morale.
Check my AAR. I make them retreat before the ships get destroyed to prevent that.
It doesn't always work out that well though.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: Xwormwood

ORIGINAL: bcg

This is a flaw with the game, but to be honest, I use the same strategy. The French never thought they will lose the war against the Germans. So why would they sacrifice their navy?

I would suggest that the UK could resurrect a certain percentage of the French navy. Thus if you sacrifice the whole French Navy, then the UK will not get a chance to get the any of the French navy later. More of the French navy lost, lower the percentage the UK gets, in terms of getting any of the French navy.

I have not played the Allied side yet, but this refers to SC2. Depending of the British decisions, there should be a chance that Vichy France actively sides with the Allies. For example, if the British do destroy the French navy in operation Catapult, there is a chance that Vichy France sides completely with the Germans. This would be a nice decision event for the Allied side.

Many things were unthinkable before WW2, and now that everybody knows about them, we can't force anyone to do the same mistakes like they were done in history. That is a constant dilemma for every historical wargame. Example: The French thought the Ardennes to secure against an enemy attack. Hitler gambled and cut of the entire Allied forces. Today NOBODY would leave the Ardennes unprotected, and yet this was the most important key to the German victory against france.

I would go the Twillight Struggle way. Allow something, but add something bad to it. Yes you can of course move your entire French Fleet out of the Med Sea, bud if you do, there will be a civil uproar in Southern France and the French North African protectorates, so say good bay to x% National Morale or y MPPs because of civil unrest.

More or less something like what Bill did with the BEF Decition Event.

Or it would push Spain closer to the Axis since that would have allowed the Italians free reign and Spain would have wanted some protection from Italian aggression.