Unit Formation Size?

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kirk23
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Unit Formation Size?

Post by kirk23 »

I have been playing these games long enough now to realize,many areas of the game play is abstracted.But I was hoping that by this time the games third incarnation, that the unit formation sizes would be standardized,but nope they are still a mixed bunch for example.


Main Infantry units come in these sizes.

Garrison.
Brigade.
Division.
Corps.
Army.

Calvary units come in these sizes.

Brigade.
Division.
Corps.

Now for one of the games main unit types the Tank.

Tank units come in these sizes.

Light Tank.
Tank. ( I assume this to mean its a Medium Tank)
Heavy Tank.

Come on this is a joke eh?Tanks should come as per Infantry and Calvary Brigade,Division & Corps.[;)]

Light tank & Heavy tank tell a player very little apart from ones light in weight and the other is heavy?[&:]


Example:The organisational structure of British armoured divisions in 1940.

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RE: Unit Formation Size?

Post by James Taylor »

Always wanted to create my own TOEs, like TOAW.
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Hexagon
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RE: Unit Formation Size?

Post by Hexagon »

To be fair to be a new game and mantein the same problems from old titles... you cant stack air units or HQ units with land units... units are not like War in the East or TAOW made of subunits, something that help AT units could integrate in armies to made them more usable and even create mixed formations, imagine mix an armored infantry corps with a panzer unit and have a Panzer corps with better soft values, more usable in urban terrain for example.

I dont say is a bad game but could be improved more.
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RE: Unit Formation Size?

Post by Rasputitsa »

There are aspects of this game which are too abstracted, but in the end it's all in the name, which is 'strategic'.

However, abstraction can go so far as to make combined arms strategies impossible and the whole effect unrealistic.

It would be too much, on this scale, to be representing brigades, or even divisions in large numbers like WitE, WitW, but to be able to split units, as is available in other older games (TOF, TOAW), would be a big advantage and provide some much needed flexibility.
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RE: Unit Formation Size?

Post by Hexagon »

Even when is a strategic game some game decisions kill this, need one hex for air units with no land units staking in same hex is for me a big [&:] for example.

The type of units is a big mix of divisional (or smaller formations) with corps and armies... i can understand it to represent things like an assault over Malta or use of paratroopers in enemy rear but customize more bigger units is a must have, for example instead the actual unit system have base formations (that could be infantry-tank-cavalry) and you can add to them subunits that increase the unit stats in diferent ways, for example pick a cavalry corps add to them a tank unit (brigade-division) and an AAA unit... imagine the actual units with 2 slots where you can use subunits to made them more custom you can start with an infantry unit + mech formations + elite infantry unit to create a fast and powerfull infantry formation VS soft targets.

The game is now as it is but i feel that works better in a WWI enviroment than in a WWII enviroment where there are a lot more type of units that made bigger formations more unique.
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RE: Unit Formation Size?

Post by RodyMetal »

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Even when is a strategic game some game decisions kill this, need one hex for air units with no land units staking in same hex is for me a big [&:] for example.

The type of units is a big mix of divisional (or smaller formations) with corps and armies... i can understand it to represent things like an assault over Malta or use of paratroopers in enemy rear but customize more bigger units is a must have, for example instead the actual unit system have base formations (that could be infantry-tank-cavalry) and you can add to them subunits that increase the unit stats in diferent ways, for example pick a cavalry corps add to them a tank unit (brigade-division) and an AAA unit... imagine the actual units with 2 slots where you can use subunits to made them more custom you can start with an infantry unit + mech formations + elite infantry unit to create a fast and powerfull infantry formation VS soft targets.

The game is now as it is but i feel that works better in a WWI enviroment than in a WWII enviroment where there are a lot more type of units that made bigger formations more unique.

That reminds of HOI division designer, but you are right it needed more in such strategic level wargame.
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Hubert Cater
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RE: Unit Formation Size?

Post by Hubert Cater »

Tank units come in these sizes.

Light Tank.
Tank. ( I assume this to mean its a Medium Tank)
Heavy Tank.

Come on this is a joke eh?Tanks should come as per Infantry and Calvary Brigade,Division & Corps.

Light tank & Heavy tank tell a player very little apart from ones light in weight and the other is heavy?

The primary reason for this is that there is a statistical difference between the 3 three main tank types and because you can invest in research and development to improve these types.

You certainly could have different sizes, but the emphasis here was the idea that the in game effects of facing off against let's say Panzer I and IIs at the start of the war versus a Tiger or a Panther later in the war should play a larger role. Having Research and Development tie into this more clearly in game was also a deciding factor.

In past releases we simply had the Tank type that through R&D could advance from let's say a Panzer I to a King Tiger, but in this release we also wanted to have a few additional locked in types such as the Light and later Heavy Tank types.

Light Tanks play a role in early Barbarossa for the Soviets, and the later Heavies (once they are available for production) come into play nicely on the Eastern Front (initially) and then elsewhere as the war progresses.

The general Tank type still represents a Tank type that through R&D can improve over time, and this way early Tank formations can improve as the war progresses, while the other locked in types are more specific (from their stats) but that can also improve through R&D.

Granted there can always be disagreement with any design choice, but after quite a bit of implementation and testing, and considering the scale, we feel that the current model works and plays quite well in game.

Hope this helps,
Hubert
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RE: Unit Formation Size?

Post by Hubert Cater »

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

To be fair to be a new game and mantein the same problems from old titles... you cant stack air units or HQ units with land units...

Hi Hexagon,

I would say that at this point this was still more of a design decision on our end more than anything else and only because of the current size of the map, unit density and the added clarity of not having to deal with stacking and even limited stacking as outlined above.

Don't get me wrong, we certainly do understand the points here, but at the same time I'd suggest giving the current game a good play through to see if you might still feel the same way.

I also suggest this as even during Beta those that were strongly for it, actually altered their opinion and more or less considered it a non issue in the new game.

That being said, it is still on our radar for something to consider for smaller custom maps with higher unit densities as it is definitely more applicable there.

Hubert
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RE: Unit Formation Size?

Post by kirk23 »

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater
Tank units come in these sizes.

Light Tank.
Tank. ( I assume this to mean its a Medium Tank)
Heavy Tank.

Come on this is a joke eh?Tanks should come as per Infantry and Calvary Brigade,Division & Corps.

Light tank & Heavy tank tell a player very little apart from ones light in weight and the other is heavy?

The primary reason for this is that there is a statistical difference between the 3 three main tank types and because you can invest in research and development to improve these types.

You certainly could have different sizes, but the emphasis here was the idea that the in game effects of facing off against let's say Panzer I and IIs at the start of the war versus a Tiger or a Panther later in the war should play a larger role. Having Research and Development tie into this more clearly in game was also a deciding factor.

In past releases we simply had the Tank type that through R&D could advance from let's say a Panzer I to a King Tiger, but in this release we also wanted to have a few additional locked in types such as the Light and later Heavy Tank types.

Light Tanks play a role in early Barbarossa for the Soviets, and the later Heavies (once they are available for production) come into play nicely on the Eastern Front (initially) and then elsewhere as the war progresses.

The general Tank type still represents a Tank type that through R&D can improve over time, and this way early Tank formations can improve as the war progresses, while the other locked in types are more specific (from their stats) but that can also improve through R&D.

Granted there can always be disagreement with any design choice, but after quite a bit of implementation and testing, and considering the scale, we feel that the current model works and plays quite well in game.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

Hi Hubert I understand why you have made the Tank units behave this way,and in game it does work well,I have just started play testing the game myself for the first time,and it is certainly a huge improvement on previous Stategic Command version's.[:)]
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Hexagon
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RE: Unit Formation Size?

Post by Hexagon »

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater
ORIGINAL: Hexagon

To be fair to be a new game and mantein the same problems from old titles... you cant stack air units or HQ units with land units...

Hi Hexagon,

I would say that at this point this was still more of a design decision on our end more than anything else and only because of the current size of the map, unit density and the added clarity of not having to deal with stacking and even limited stacking as outlined above.

Don't get me wrong, we certainly do understand the points here, but at the same time I'd suggest giving the current game a good play through to see if you might still feel the same way.

I also suggest this as even during Beta those that were strongly for it, actually altered their opinion and more or less considered it a non issue in the new game.

That being said, it is still on our radar for something to consider for smaller custom maps with higher unit densities as it is definitely more applicable there.

Hubert

In my case the problem with no stack of combat unit with HQ and air units is more based in 2 problems, one is the problem to defend this units from enemy, you need cicle them with units or at least cover a big part of their all around area, the other problem is that air units work in certain situations as blockage units for friendly units because you need concentrate them a lot in certain areas and cant be over the first-second line to increase their value.

Think that they have a range of attack and defend and you need use them as umbrellas and to operate over enemy territory (bombers to attack fighters to defend them).

This is why i think in a WWI the problem is less noticiable.

I feel that in the units area game could offer a lot more and improve the options for players, game is good??? yes, could be better, of course.

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RE: Unit Formation Size?

Post by Dorb »

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