GD1938 Game 23

[cpdeyoung]

I am glad we are going to continue, but I am very disappointed with the continuing jabs at Larry and I.

THREE MONTHS AGO when I posted that I was going to empty Finland of troops, and encouraged Germany and the USSR to enter the vacuum not one of you posted that this would be a problem. There were six days for someone to post a message about the issue. Baloo7777 posted during this period but mentioned nothing about the issue.

On July 14th Larry took the step I anticipated and scooped up Finland. Ironduke said a peace soon to follow would be "fishy". When Larry captured what he wanted of Finland he offered peace, and I accepted. If I had not nothing would have changed : the USA would still be able to help GB-FR with supplies, and I still would have been able to build up my forces.

Bombur pointed out :

It seems not fair to me too....but we didn´t implement this house rule in this game

Nine days after the event Ironduke wrote :

The German people empathise with the US people regards the Finnish dilemma, however Germany feels that history will not look kindly on a nation that first courts influence with a nation then abandons them.

The only thing the USA has done since the activation is build up my forces, and help a new player who blundered into war with Germany, and lost the Royal Navy's control of the seas.

We did not ally with the USSR.

We have not attacked Germany or Italy.

We have defended ourselves against the Japanese attack.

From July 14 to October 11 no one commented at all. Then nearly three months later Ironduke posted in the Game 25 thread Ironduke posted :

none of this is in keeping with the spirit of GD1938 where none of the above would have washed with the US public of the period, who would have impeached any president that used such a device to get them into a war, and would still have been unwilling to get involved in any other global conflicts.

When I pointed out that his Game 24 alliance between Japan and China was equally unlikely he called my comment "specious".

It has gone downhill from there, including a possibility we might not have been able to continue the game.

As the game continues I will forgo any chance at the "major victory". I will police my VP to make sure I do not "win" the game. My decision to do this does not mean I will not fight my forces hard, only that I will not "win" the "major victory". Larry, I am sorry your role in all this has caused you some bother. I will not offer you an alliance, but if an alliance with the USA is your own path to a "major victory" I will consider an alliance with you. Just now I am in an alliance with the Democracies, and I will work hard for a British or French victory.

@Ironduke,
I am very much more GB-FR's friend than I am Germany's enemy. You are a fierce competitor and we have had our innings. The 'Thank you for sharing!" was not meant in the sense you interpreted, but I should have avoided the "jab". I respect you as an excellent player, and we share a love for this wonderful game. I hope we all can get past this and have fun with each other in the spirit of gaming.

Chuck

[ironduke1955]

First off I have agreed to continue, so no more needs to be said on the matter, Bombur and Earnieshwitz will try and address the issue. Having said that, I will say some more on the matter.

I said the DOW by the USSR would be fishy at the time but I was ignored and you and Larry pressed on. So I have been feeling the effects of a false War ever since with the USA losing their neutrality in 1938. I am curious why do you think the rule on US neutrality is in the game it is to balance the game, so you circumvented the US neutrality mechanism, Bombur and Earnieshwitz cannot hard code US neutrality so it is a house rule or gentleman's agreement that to break it before the mechanism that the MOD designers put in place to break US neutrality is implemented, that requires a monthly role, the odds of which are improved by playing the break neutrality card, this is a expensive business in terms of Political Points, and does not give a certain date for US entry into the War, Unless they are attacked by a real enemy, the USSR in game 23 are not a real enemy. As baloo7777 said you have gamed the MOD. A fairly apt description.

Whatever the meaning of "Thank you for sharing" it was intended to diminish the value of my comments at best.

[ironduke1955]

"When I pointed out that his Game 24 alliance between Japan and China was equally unlikely he called my comment "specious"."

I will point out again that the Japanese and Chinese start the game in 1938 at war, a war started in 1936 so as a comparison its literally chalk and cheese, no game mechanisms are circumvented, and the request for peace originated from the Japanese not the Chinese, so there are no false declarations of war only a peace and if that turns into a alliance that is none of your business. You can politic with the Japanese or my Chinese if you wish but keep it in game and off the forum.

[ironduke1955]

As the game continues I will forgo any chance at the "major victory". I will police my VP to make sure I do not "win" the game. My decision to do this does not mean I will not fight my forces hard, only that I will not "win" the "major victory". Larry, I am sorry your role in all this has caused you some bother. I will not offer you an alliance, but if an alliance with the USA is your own path to a "major victory" I will consider an alliance with you. Just now I am in an alliance with the Democracies, and I will work hard for a British or French victory.

With respect and I speak only for myself in this, I prefer players going for victory it would spoil the game if in some way you held back from US ambitions for victory. Regards a alliance we both know that's not going to happen you have one of the more powerful nations and from previous games I am mindful of what a dangerous opponent you are. So let loose the dogs of war.

[cpdeyoung]

US isolationism is not in any sense a house rule. It is indeed hard coded into the game.

There are two ways out of isolationism. The USA buys its way out, or gets attacked. This has always been the way it has been. No house rule under old or new victory conditions.

There was, in the old VC game, a house rule about false, faux or phony wars. The rule was to prevent friendly nations exploiting an attack on a minor by having a friendly nation give in quickly, and allowing the attacker to take the nation, or splitting it between them.

The USSR did NOT attack Finland to help the USA. We were not, and are not allies, and were not, nor are we now friendly. The USSR attacked empty, totally undefended Finland because they could not stand the thought of Germany sailing one infantry division to Helsinki and taking this doorstep nation. Because I had offered both of you a peace with the USA after violation of Finland I took his peace offer. If I had not the USA still would have broken isolation, which was my goal. The USSR entered Finland for exactly the same reason they often enter Poland. They wanted to have a buffer. No one ever worries that they make peace with the French, and possibly British, after the Polish excursion and no one should be surprised they offered peace to the USA. There was no situation where friendly nations were involved. Larry and I honored the house rule of the old VC games in every sense.

This is a new VC game. To end the game with some victory a coalition must get two thirds of the VP on the board. This appears to be 65 VP of 97. Haudrauf is doing an excellent job with GB-FR, especially since he is new to this game. I do not think GB will be taken soon. The USA, which will not seek a major victory, is still a powerful ally for some coalition which will form. The Axis as constituted is small but has fighting strength. Without some tectonic shifts this game will not be won by any current coalition. This means we must look carefully at the questions of war and peace and alliances.

If Italy was convinced by my arguments and wanted to join a coalition of GB-FR-USA-CH they could offer peace to GB-FR, but would have to declare war on Germany and Japan to leave their current alliance. If Italy offered peace to Germany and Japan it might look like a false war, but it really would only be leaving an alliance by the only way currently allowed. The alliance structure would then, after GR-JP accepted Italy's peace offer, be GB-FR-US-CH-IT, GR-JP, with the USSR standing alone. This still would not end the game with a victory. The warring nations in the world would be GB-FR vs GR-JP and US vs JP. Clearly more shifting and coalition building will be needed or some serious battle resulting in VP conquest. While it would be fun to see such battles it should be clear to all that the necessary conquests are more difficult than the ones needed to win under the old VC.

Fo this reason I propose that we all explore a way to leave an alliance without declaring war on your partners. Perhaps we can have a one month notice of intent to withdraw, which will give the partners a chance to shift forces. If one month is not enough then perhaps two or three. I think we need the flexibility this will give, but I still feel the "Risk" like new VC are not giving us the best game.

---------

On your Chinese-Japanese alliance : All I am saying is such an alliance no more likely than Pres. Roosevelt getting into the war by being attacked. Your alliance did not happen, some would maintain these nations hate each other still. The USA was indeed attacked, and for a very long time many believed Pres. Roosevelt did indeed manipulate the Japanese into the attack on Pearl Harbor. I am not saying you did anything at all wrong in the alliance, all is fair in "Risk", and perhaps you can see some small argument for what I did. In any case when Ernie modifies the MFN of Finland to be another nation than the USA this will be a moot point.

Chuck

[cpdeyoung]

@Ironduke,

You posted while I was composing my screed.

I agree with you, and boy does that feel good!

Let loose the dogs!

Chuck

PS. My cocker spaniel is no dog of war!

[ironduke1955]

I can't say I agree with much of this but I am getting of the merry go round, if I do not argue with points made, that does not mean I agree, I stand by what I have previously said.

[ironduke1955]

Game 23 turn 29 waiting on France.

[LJBurstyn]

Hmmm?
I DOW on USA and make peace (Finland)
I DOW on GB/France and make peace (Poland)
In both cases it was to set up a buffer between myself and a foreign power (Germany in this case).

The USA player made a good move in forcing me to DOW against them while stating that he would accept a peace offer. Otherwise I would be fighting on the side of Germany... Same with the peace offer to GB/France. I am at this time deciding on which side I should enter the war. No side at this time has offered me anything to join their side....I'm open to "bribes". How is that said in political talk? Basically I want to enter this war on the winning side to further my ambitions of being a world power broker. To do so I had to know on which side the USA would land (the sooner the better).

Since in my opinion GB started this war with an attack on German ships in international waters and in violation of international laws of the sea.

[MrLongleg]

I think it is easy to see that the US is not in favor of Germany at this point

[cpdeyoung]

4 March 1940

Periscope shot from the submarine Perch :

[cpdeyoung]

4 March 1940

An overview of the month's activity.

[ironduke1955]

1940 April

Portugal is filling with the US European invasion force. The USA will talk of defending Portugal's borders. But just look at the size of these forces they have one purpose only, the days are ticking down towards the US assault on Europe another war of aggression from the Anglo Saxon coalition. We wait for the US DOW on Europe.

France still resists supported by Perfidious Albion and arms and supplies from the USA.

[cpdeyoung]

A Call to Arms!

[cpdeyoung]

1 April 1940

Action in the Philippines :

[cpdeyoung]

1 April 1940

Buenos Aires falls to Brazilian-USA forces.

[cpdeyoung]

1 April 1940

The USA, and her allies, enter the war in Europe.

As pointed out in the 'Call to Arms" above the Axis powers have done very well. Germany in particular has used innovative approaches and proficient execution to gain an enviable position. The United States has been building up forces in Portugal, and we feel that we can wait no longer to use them. This means entering Italian controlled Spain, as our path into this war. Thus we embark on a two-ocean global war.

In Spain our first goal was to establish a land path from Lisbon to Gibraltar. The Italians have been pounding away at Gibraltar and we could not let it become too weak. Our second goal was to push inland from the narrow Portuguese enclave. We need some land as a buffer, especially if battle-hardened troops from the French campaign rush south. Our forces are at the end of a long ocean route, one which powerful Axis naval forces will attempt to interdict. Much of our naval power is on the other side of the world and the battle of the Atlantic should prove brutal.

[ironduke1955]

The Kriegsmarine are in the English Channel in a attempt to stem British reinforcements to the BEF and of course to prevent any Dunkirk miracles. Infantry are loaded on transports these are not the units favoured by the Germans to spearhead amphibious landings on a hostile beach with retaliation a day or two away. And here is the rub the Germans have sent a diplomatic mission to the British in a attempt to broker a peace, this mission has been in the British Isles since April. But we Germans have after long negotiations received the will of Parliament which is to continue the war of aggression started by the British and French in 1938. The Germans believe that war has been lost what keeps the British fighting on is the USA, what assurances the US has given I do not know, but the USA is now a obstacle to peace.

And prophetically what the Germans stated would happen has happened, US Armies are attacking the Spanish and Italians on the Iberian peninsular. Peoples who have only been the victim so far in the war, and have committed no offence against the league of Nations, are now being slaughtered by the US in a war of domination. But the US a purveyor of bare faced lies, has shown a picture of the German Navy and then called for a world effort to rid the world of Germans[&:]

Germany makes another call to Arms to the remaining powers of the world to rise up against the US and British Tyrants before it is to late, Germany will fight at your side we do not seek world domination and we will ensure that our Allies prosper and the enemies of liberty do not.

[MrLongleg]

Only one answer to the Germans: Nuts !!!!

[baloo7777]

Italian land based aircraft, with Submarine surveillance, completely destroyed the RN Atlantic Fleet that was poking around Sicily's shores. Among the 8 destroyed capital ships was a new class of battleship (BB3). Also, the Italian Air Force Torpedo Bombers and their brave aircrews, caught the trapped RN Courageous class CV trying to leave the safety of Gibraltar for the open Atlantic, and pressed home the attack, sinking her before she could escape. After the American invasion of Spain, these actions vs America's British ally has bolstered the Italian homefront and there has been a noticeable boost in production of goods and materials needed for this long and bloody conflict.