Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

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PipFromSlitherine
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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by PipFromSlitherine »

Setting aside that "Political Correctness" has zero to do with this issue...

I think the key point is that the building has almost no historical significance beyond that that has been given to it by neo-nazis. Thus it's removal has no real effect on the historical record, while making it much harder for fascists to use it as an unofficial shrine.

Nobody is talking about tearing down Auschwitz.

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warspite1
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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by warspite1 »

Pip I assume the comments above - in particular PC thinking and destroying buildings and monuments - reflect what appears to be happening in the US at the moment (according to a thread in the WITP-AE forum).

So using a Confederate Civil War general as an example, certain historians over there are taking the view that there is no need to look at this guy, what he stood for, what he did etc in terms of the times in which he lived. The correct way of dealing with said character is to label him a filthy racist and ensure any buildings, monuments etc to him and his ilk are destroyed. By an extension of that thinking all references to anything bad are torn down - we have an example in this country recently with the wish of some to remove the statue of Cecil Rhodes.

This is scary. After all who sets the agenda? Who decides who is bad? What does bad mean? In an ever changing world if we label everyone by the standards of today, just how many monuments would there be in the world?

Its just self-serving, self-righteous, lazy claptrap - and a worrying development....

Now Maitland, now's your time!

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AbwehrX
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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by AbwehrX »

z1812 and Warspite1,

Those are excellent points. I would also add that this has everything to do with "political correctness".
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z1812
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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by z1812 »

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Setting aside that "Political Correctness" has zero to do with this issue...

I think the key point is that the building has almost no historical significance beyond that that has been given to it by neo-nazis. Thus it's removal has no real effect on the historical record, while making it much harder for fascists to use it as an unofficial shrine.

Nobody is talking about tearing down Auschwitz.

Cheers

Pip


Following that logic then all memorials or architecture having anything to do with any type of extreme policy resulting in the mistreatment of people should be destroyed less they become shrines to evil. That would leave most countries sadly bereft of any historical symbols, architecture, or monuments. It also begs the question stated by others as to who gets to decide. There are few countries that can boast of never having governments or policies leading to genocide or oppression of particular groups. Imagine destroying churches simply because historically organized religion has been responsible for so much mayhem and death. Or let's tear down the historical homes of prominent figures who owned or supported slavery.

History is often a messy business but without it we lose perspective. Yes these sites can become shrines to a few, but their benefit is in being a warning to many more......and that is without considering their historical and educational value.
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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by MakeeLearn »

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PipFromSlitherine
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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by PipFromSlitherine »

Broadly, these are not equivalent issues. Hitler's house is, today, still a rallying point for an still-extant Nazi movement. That should be the only question under discussion.

@Warspite. Who decides? Us, as a society. A society which, in general, becomes better over time. I would think you would want to choose a better example than the desire to remove a celebratory statue (a statue which has, itself, no historical value) of an unrepentant (and inarguable) racist. Whatever ACW examples you are also alluding to (though you don't cite any links) I can't comment on. But the idea that we can't decide that we no longer want to celebrate a person or institution, who committed acts which we now see to be reprehensible, simply because the statue has been there for a while - it seems a little odd, no? Imagine telling the Iraqis they couldn't tear down all the statues of Saddam.

@Abwherx. No, it really isn't.

@z1812. Nice straw man. Nobody is suggesting doing what you incorrectly state my logic leads to. It's nothing to do with lest anything, Nazis ARE using Hitler's home as a shrine, and the house itself has almost no historical value. Slippery slope fallacy is still a fallacy. If a monument's sole purpose is to glorify something terrible, why should people have to live with it in their midst?

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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

@Warspite. Who decides? Us, as a society. A society which, in general, becomes better over time. I would think you would want to choose a better example than the desire to remove a celebratory statue (a statue which has, itself, no historical value) of an unrepentant (and inarguable) racist.

Nazis ARE using Hitler's home as a shrine, and the house itself has almost no historical value.
Cheers Pip

To be real about this, those deciding now are political activists (bullying Representatives with the assistance of the media)...not the population in general. Perhaps if it were put to a referendum vote on an election day that has big turnout, that would be the better approach. As for "society getting better", that used to be the case...I can make a very strong argument that society has gotten much worse over the last quarter century.

About the house, and maybe as an American I don't understand...but Hitler only lived in that house a short time as a toddler...its not like he grew up there and/or had formative political moments then. If you are a NAZI and want to worship the idiot, and need an idol to do so...there are dozens of sites far more worthy and interesting than this ugly house.
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PipFromSlitherine
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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by PipFromSlitherine »

You are correct that change tends to be driven by the people that turn up! But while we don't always take the shortest line, the historical trend is pretty clear. It wouldn't be hard to find paraphrases of your sentiment from every decade of the last 200 years [:)].

I think the point is that there aren't that many Hilter shrines left (for fairly obvious reasons), as well as the handiness of this for Austrian Nazis, in a country still struggling with a neo-Nazi fringe.

Cheers

Pip

[edited after accusing Austria of having a neo-Nazi fridge...]
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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Broadly, these are not equivalent issues. Hitler's house is, today, still a rallying point for an still-extant Nazi movement. That should be the only question under discussion.

@Warspite. Who decides? Us, as a society. A society which, in general, becomes better over time. I would think you would want to choose a better example than the desire to remove a celebratory statue (a statue which has, itself, no historical value) of an unrepentant (and inarguable) racist. Whatever ACW examples you are also alluding to (though you don't cite any links) I can't comment on. But the idea that we can't decide that we no longer want to celebrate a person or institution, who committed acts which we now see to be reprehensible, simply because the statue has been there for a while - it seems a little odd, no? Imagine telling the Iraqis they couldn't tear down all the statues of Saddam.
warspite1

So no matter what that person contributed in his time, no matter his achievements, if by the standards of today we don’t hold with some of the things he did (even though they may not have been considered wrong (or were the norm) at that time) then its goodnight and goodbye, white-washed from history?

And where does guilt start – is there guilt by association? Is it actually doing a deed we no longer agree with or just the sanctioning of such a deed? Is a great explorer to be remembered for his exploring – or written out of the history books because as a result of that exploring he was followed by the imperialists? These divisions are rarely black and white either are they?

Just think about what that means for a second? Winston Churchill – given some of his writings and actions, are we to remove all monuments, place names and buildings associated with him? How about Abraham Lincoln? How about Napoleon? Reprehensible deeds? Well all three are heroes to many – but equally there are those that disagree. I ask again who decides? Who decides what is reprehensible enough? I mean being a Neanderthal, knuckle dragging racist is reprehensible by the standards of today, but then so is authorising a war of aggression against your neighbours. So is any form of Empire. Wow, London, Washington, Paris et al are going to need a lot of work…….
But the idea that we can't decide that we no longer want to celebrate a person or institution, who committed acts which we now see to be reprehensible, simply because the statue has been there for a while - it seems a little odd, no?

Well, that you think that is what I meant is frankly a little insulting.

Now Maitland, now's your time!

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PipFromSlitherine
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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by PipFromSlitherine »

Nobody is talking about whitewashing history, nor about some guilt by association witch-hunt. Rhodes (using the example you cited) will still be studied and known about. But it's not unreasonable that some might question whether a statue of an unrepentant racist be part of a university. It's also worth noting that the statue was left in place in the end, with additional information provided to put him in context. Almost nobody is suggesting any of the things you rhetorically ask about.

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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by Hotschi »

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

...

I think the key point is that the building has almost no historical significance beyond that that has been given to it by neo-nazis. Thus it's removal has no real effect on the historical record, while making it much harder for fascists to use it as an unofficial shrine.

Nobody is talking about tearing down Auschwitz.

Cheers

Pip

That's a very good summary of the whole issue!

Mr. Sobotka back-pedaled already - he's no longer talking about tearing down the house, he's now opting for Option #3 as given above.
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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Nobody is talking about whitewashing history, nor about some guilt by association witch-hunt.

Cheers

Pip

warspite1

Well you are ignoring the burgeoning movement in American academia that seemingly wants to do just that. The question is - where does that end. No, no one right now is suggesting those things I mentioned (well I'm sure some people are.....) but that is where the wonderful world of political correctness appears to be headed according to one source I happen to trust.


Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

I think the point is that there aren't that many Hilter shrines left (for fairly obvious reasons), as well as the handiness of this for Austrian Nazis, in a country still struggling with a neo-Nazi fringe. Cheers Pip

There are actually quite many. Some in ruins, some completely in tact. Here are a couple of them, very convenient for the self-styled Austrian neo-Nazi:

http://www.uncommon-travel-germany.com/ ... rmany.html

http://www.uncommon-travel-germany.com/berghof.html
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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by PipFromSlitherine »

Jagd, I deleted your second post to prevent the thread being locked. We're sailing close to the wind as it is, but I wanted to try hard to keep it open...

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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by PipFromSlitherine »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Nobody is talking about whitewashing history, nor about some guilt by association witch-hunt.

Cheers

Pip

warspite1

Well you are ignoring the burgeoning movement in American academia that seemingly wants to do just that. The question is - where does that end. No, no one right now is suggesting those things I mentioned (well I'm sure some people are.....) but that is where the wonderful world of political correctness appears to be headed according to one source I happen to trust.
Sharing citations for any of the things you state would make it easier to discuss the issues.

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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by MakeeLearn »




Tear it down it will provide us with a warm fuzzy saint sanctimonious feeling to have as we progress to utopia.






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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Nobody is talking about whitewashing history, nor about some guilt by association witch-hunt.

Cheers

Pip

warspite1

Well you are ignoring the burgeoning movement in American academia that seemingly wants to do just that. The question is - where does that end. No, no one right now is suggesting those things I mentioned (well I'm sure some people are.....) but that is where the wonderful world of political correctness appears to be headed according to one source I happen to trust.
Sharing citations for any of the things you state would make it easier to discuss the issues.

Cheers

Pip

warspite1

I have enquired of the gentleman from the WITP-AE thread if he cares to provide further (more specific) comment. No idea if he will care to get involved but I am sure he could add additional detail on the movement in American academia that I referred to.
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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by z1812 »

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

@z1812. Nice straw man. Nobody is suggesting doing what you incorrectly state my logic leads to. It's nothing to do with lest anything, Nazis ARE using Hitler's home as a shrine, and the house itself has almost no historical value. Slippery slope fallacy is still a fallacy. If a monument's sole purpose is to glorify something terrible, why should people have to live with it in their midst?

Cheers

Pip

Tearing down that house will not stop Neo-Nazis from visiting the site as the birthplace of Hitler. It is unfortunate that you insult my point of view by referring to me as a straw man and my view as a straw man's argument. I understand your view. I simply disagree with it. Interesting discussions flourish if we don't use demeaning terms for legitimate points and those making them.
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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by PipFromSlitherine »

ORIGINAL: z1812

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

@z1812. Nice straw man. Nobody is suggesting doing what you incorrectly state my logic leads to. It's nothing to do with lest anything, Nazis ARE using Hitler's home as a shrine, and the house itself has almost no historical value. Slippery slope fallacy is still a fallacy. If a monument's sole purpose is to glorify something terrible, why should people have to live with it in their midst?

Cheers

Pip

Tearing down that house will not stop Neo-Nazis from visiting the site as the birthplace of Hitler. It is unfortunate that you insult my point of view by referring to me as a straw man and my view as a straw man's argument. I understand your view. I simply disagree with it. Interesting discussions flourish if we don't use demeaning terms for legitimate points and those making them.
Straw Man is not a personal insult, I was pointing out that you were taking my statement and extending it to something I never said. It is a common debating term:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I feel I have said all I wanted to here. Stepping out.

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Pip

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RE: Austria to tear down Hitler birth house

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine
I would think you would want to choose a better example than the desire to remove a celebratory statue (a statue which has, itself, no historical value) of an unrepentant (and inarguable) racist.

By this logic then you would have to condone what recently happened in Syria when ISIS killed the man who refused to tell them where the ancient artifacts were hidden in Palmyra (I think that was the city name, though I could be wrong) and they then proceeded to destroy anything they could find tied to ancient history in the city. After all they are the ones in power and their judgment about what history is and isn't appropriate should be accepted correct?

You don't get to justify an evil act as good just because you happen to agree with the people in power at the time. Anyone who tries to erase history for any reason is committing an evil act. It's an attempt to control the knowledge and judgment of the masses and is in league with the eugenicists line of thinking from the early 1900's. They believed they could mold peoples thoughts and desires if people simply submitted to their control and directives. And those who failed to submit should be incarcerated or killed.

It's not as blatant today, as they would be condemned were their true thoughts revealed. So instead they advocate changing history and controlling thought through shaming tactics. If you defend anything they oppose you're labeled a racist or sexist or whatever ist fits their agenda. It's still an attempt to control the masses and camouflages itself by wrapping itself in social justice/feminist colors.

If you really want some stark examples of how bad its gotten recently, go to youtube and listen to what some of the anti-feminists who used to be a part of the original feminist movement have to say.

This professor is a good example of someone screaming into the wind to try and warn people about the sickness that has taken hold on western campuses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD65wnD ... kOChBKDIaw

This little event surrounding the tearing down of Hitler's birth place is a relatively minor issue, but it is a part of a much larger agenda that has grown exponentially over the past 8-10 years and is becoming a tidal wave of mass insanity.

The first video in her series I linked above shows its not hyperbole, she actually has video of young men forced to stand up and apologize for being white and being male before they are allowed to even speak in public. And for some insane reason this is accepted as normal and ok on campuses all across the west today.

Jim
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