[FIXED] MAD detection of subs
Moderator: MOD_Command
[FIXED] MAD detection of subs
I've been using the Scenario Editor to check on MAD detection.
P3 Orion can detect subs down to their deepest depth>700feet.
This must be broken.
MAD detection is inversely reduced by distance squared. There's no way it would be able to pickup a sub at this depth.
P3 Orion can detect subs down to their deepest depth>700feet.
This must be broken.
MAD detection is inversely reduced by distance squared. There's no way it would be able to pickup a sub at this depth.
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RE: MAD detection of subs
What altitude is the P-3 at?
RE: MAD detection of subs
I uploaded the scen file.
I've tested this in multiple Northern Inferno scenarios though.
Aircraft are at 1000ft. with MAD
I've tested this in multiple Northern Inferno scenarios though.
Aircraft are at 1000ft. with MAD
- Attachments
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- testbed.zip
- (6.32 KiB) Downloaded 18 times
RE: MAD detection of subs
This is the moment of detection where the P3 Orion detects with the MAD the 1100 foot deep sub.
How is this possible?
How is this possible?
- Attachments
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- MAD1100feet.jpg (307.51 KiB) Viewed 569 times
RE: MAD detection of subs
I remember reading a study that under good conditions, a MAD system could detect down to 1500 ft. I'll see I can find the pdf in my files.
- michaelm75au
- Posts: 12455
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- Location: Melbourne, Australia
RE: MAD detection of subs
The function, then, of airborne MAD equipment is to detect the submarine-caused anomaly in the earth's magnetic field. The depth at which a submarine can be detected is a function both of the size of the submarine and how close the sensor is flown to the surface of the water.
Source: http://defence.pk/threads/so-you-want-t ... z4NmU0yiJk
Another older article which shows some numbers (page 3 shows a table)
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a081329.pdf
Source: http://defence.pk/threads/so-you-want-t ... z4NmU0yiJk
Another older article which shows some numbers (page 3 shows a table)
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a081329.pdf
Michael
RE: MAD detection of subs
That last link is the one I remember.
RE: MAD detection of subs
ORIGINAL: dvresic
I've been using the Scenario Editor to check on MAD detection.
P3 Orion can detect subs down to their deepest depth>700feet.
This must be broken.
MAD detection is inversely reduced by distance squared. There's no way it would be able to pickup a sub at this depth.
Can I ask where your knowledge comes from? You seem pretty sure in your initial post. Five minutes with google showed me those parameters are at least within the realm of possibility.
I mean, you didn't come in asking how the MAD model works. You actually declared it broken. So I think you can at least show what sources you had to say its broken.
RE: MAD detection of subs
I'd like to hear some input from the Developers on their MAD model. Short of that are there any submariners that can shed some light on this?
Yes surface conditions, speed of the detecting platform, alignment of the submarine to the magnetic field lines, composition and size of the submarine....but the depth I would assume would be the single most important factor in detection.
Does the game model all this? What factors influence MAD in game and to what extent?
Here's a quote from Wikipedia;
Operation
To reduce interference from electrical equipment or metal in the fuselage of the aircraft, the MAD sensor is placed at the end of a boom or on a towed aerodynamic device. Even so, the submarine must be very near the aircraft's position and close to the sea surface for detection of the anomaly, according to the Inverse Square Law (or Law of Inverse Squares). The size of the submarine, its hull composition and orientation determine the detection range. MAD devices are usually mounted on aircraft.
RE: MAD detection of subs
My question is you said its broken...what's broken? Can you at least answer that instead of throwing wiki links around?
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RE: MAD detection of subs
I ran some tests on this a while back. Using a helix to detect a LA class sub altitude and depth had a significant impact.
At a (helo) altitude of 1000ft a sub at -100ft was detected at 564m. At a depth of -500ft the sub was detected at 442m, and at -1000ft the sub was detected at 290m. This was consistent and repeatable.
Not sure if it's correct or not, but the model does seem to take depth into account.
At a (helo) altitude of 1000ft a sub at -100ft was detected at 564m. At a depth of -500ft the sub was detected at 442m, and at -1000ft the sub was detected at 290m. This was consistent and repeatable.
Not sure if it's correct or not, but the model does seem to take depth into account.
RE: MAD detection of subs
Tried this now.
The maximum detection range of the CA/ASQ-508(V) MAD sensor is 1nm.
The detection check happens as the CP-140 is at 1000ft and the submarine is at 1312ft. The slant range between them is 0.60nm, well within the MAD sensor's range, so the detection happens.
Which, if any, of the above elements is unreasonable ?
The maximum detection range of the CA/ASQ-508(V) MAD sensor is 1nm.
The detection check happens as the CP-140 is at 1000ft and the submarine is at 1312ft. The slant range between them is 0.60nm, well within the MAD sensor's range, so the detection happens.
Which, if any, of the above elements is unreasonable ?
RE: MAD detection of subs
If this was realistic, that a P3 would get a MAD contact at a sub at any depth, well I don't think the Navies of the world would be spending as much time and money in ASW as they are.
In the game; a 30x30mile patrol box of a P3 with a loiter time of 3hours would detect a sub every single time. No matter what depth or speed. Simply by flying over it with MAD. The sub could be 1400 feet deep.
Therefore I think the model is broken.
Scenario after scenario. Subs sunk due to a MAD hit.
I've posted a scenario...2 US SSN's (LA and Virginia class )are trying to Break out/Break in thru the San Juan Straight. It's not Sonar that picks them up. In every case it's a P3 flying patrol overhead with MAD.
In the game; a 30x30mile patrol box of a P3 with a loiter time of 3hours would detect a sub every single time. No matter what depth or speed. Simply by flying over it with MAD. The sub could be 1400 feet deep.
Therefore I think the model is broken.
Scenario after scenario. Subs sunk due to a MAD hit.
I've posted a scenario...2 US SSN's (LA and Virginia class )are trying to Break out/Break in thru the San Juan Straight. It's not Sonar that picks them up. In every case it's a P3 flying patrol overhead with MAD.
- Attachments
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- JuandeFucaASW1.zip
- (50.46 KiB) Downloaded 12 times
RE: MAD detection of subs
This doesn't answer the question. Which of the above steps that I listed is unreasonable?
Do you have any sources that MAD is unable to detect aircraft at large depth ?
Thanks.
Do you have any sources that MAD is unable to detect aircraft at large depth ?
Thanks.
RE: MAD detection of subs
This was in 1945...so in my opinion, current detection ranges and depths are totally reasonable:
https://books.google.fi/books?id=nyYSER ... ep&f=false
It says that Japanese MAD could detect submarine 900 feet range. Patrol altitude 200 ft would allow detection to 700 ft.
As Sunburn said, modern MAD has detection range of 1 nm. So detections even deep are totally feasible.
https://books.google.fi/books?id=nyYSER ... ep&f=false
It says that Japanese MAD could detect submarine 900 feet range. Patrol altitude 200 ft would allow detection to 700 ft.
As Sunburn said, modern MAD has detection range of 1 nm. So detections even deep are totally feasible.
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-
RE: MAD detection of subs
That's all the input required for a MAD detection? range?ORIGINAL: Sunburn
Tried this now.
The maximum detection range of the CA/ASQ-508(V) MAD sensor is 1nm.
The detection check happens as the CP-140 is at 1000ft and the submarine is at 1312ft. The slant range between them is 0.60nm, well within the MAD sensor's range, so the detection happens.
Which, if any, of the above elements is unreasonable ?
Kids think about Iran and Amateurs think about Russia, but professionals think about China
RE: MAD detection of subs
Slant range, plus modifiers for non-metallic construction. If you look at the DB there are no per-platform magnetic signatures.
- wild_Willie2
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- Location: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
RE: MAD detection of subs
During normal ASW operations operations there would also be numerous false contacts in any shallow patrol area due to wrecks, debris or magnetic minerals.
Maybe it would be a good idea to introduce false MAD contacts like "wrecks" or "iron garbage" in lieu of false sonar contracts. I don't think these would be hard to program into the game, it would just be a matter of creating a neutral underwater unit with zero speed and a high magnetic field.
W.
Maybe it would be a good idea to introduce false MAD contacts like "wrecks" or "iron garbage" in lieu of false sonar contracts. I don't think these would be hard to program into the game, it would just be a matter of creating a neutral underwater unit with zero speed and a high magnetic field.
W.
In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.
RE: MAD detection of subs
Hi Guys
There are some planned sonar and sub mechanics improvements planed for the future but for moment the sub model is sufficient for what most people seem to want to do. If you'd like something added please put it in the request strings so we can get a sense of priority.
Thanks!
Mike
There are some planned sonar and sub mechanics improvements planed for the future but for moment the sub model is sufficient for what most people seem to want to do. If you'd like something added please put it in the request strings so we can get a sense of priority.
Thanks!
Mike