AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Take command of air and naval assets from post-WW2 to the near future in tactical and operational scale, complete with historical and hypothetical scenarios and an integrated scenario editor.

Moderator: MOD_Command

Post Reply
U6443
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:24 pm

AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by U6443 »

Hi

Where do you set the activation Point for BOL Attack for the AGM-88B Harm against ships? The ship is radiating, but teh AGM-88B Harm i can only attack with BOL

10nm? 5nm? which is the best distance? I tried just before the ship but most fly over it (despite it is radiating)


Thank's

Andy
Cik
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:22 am

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by Cik »

is there a reason you can't just turn it on immediately?

i mean, the target of opportunity modes in real life generally go active off the rail; only the restrictive steerpoint attack methods (equations of motion, pre-briefed) actually restrict seeker window / activation to certain weapon time-on-target values.

the reason it's flying over the target if you turn it on very late is probably because it's too high. remember that at least IRL HARMs fly a fairly high attack profile, to maximize ballistic range, and since they aren't very maneuverable they will have trouble turning in to home on anything off seeker boresight unless they have a reasonable amount of time to do so.
User avatar
dcpollay
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:58 am
Location: Upstate New York USA

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by dcpollay »

Can you even BOL a HARM? I thought they needed to have a targeted emitter locked on in order to launch.
I could be wrong, as some missiles have loiter/search capability, but....
"It's all according to how your boogaloo situation stands, you understand."

Formerly known as Colonel Mustard, before I got Slitherine Syndrome.
mikmykWS
Posts: 7185
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:34 pm

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: U6443

Hi

Where do you set the activation Point for BOL Attack for the AGM-88B Harm against ships? The ship is radiating, but teh AGM-88B Harm i can only attack with BOL

10nm? 5nm? which is the best distance? I tried just before the ship but most fly over it (despite it is radiating)


Thank's

Andy


Hey Andy post the file and somebody can tell you exactly what's going on.

Thanks!

Mike
mikmykWS
Posts: 7185
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:34 pm

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: Cik

is there a reason you can't just turn it on immediately?

i mean, the target of opportunity modes in real life generally go active off the rail; only the restrictive steerpoint attack methods (equations of motion, pre-briefed) actually restrict seeker window / activation to certain weapon time-on-target values.

the reason it's flying over the target if you turn it on very late is probably because it's too high. remember that at least IRL HARMs fly a fairly high attack profile, to maximize ballistic range, and since they aren't very maneuverable they will have trouble turning in to home on anything off seeker boresight unless they have a reasonable amount of time to do so.

No this wouldn't likely be it. How long have you been playing this game?

Thanks

Mike
Cik
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:22 am

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by Cik »

after a little testing BOL HARMs behave pretty strangely. or, i guess not strangely if you consider BOL a steerpoint target (which i didn't)

instead of flying an RUK-style profile they fly a attack profile, then "turn-on" and choose a radar type at the point given at the origin of the BOL command.

i figured they would fly a more typical self defense profile. personally i don't think BOL is that useful with HARMs. is there any reason you can't just fire them at the ships? if it won't let you, just modify the WRA. if they are emitting there's no reason you shouldn't be able to shoot at them.
U6443
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:24 pm

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by U6443 »

Hi

Here you have a savefile. For example on the left side I would like to attack the BPK Udaloy I (radiating at the moment)
with HARM missiles from GROUP4724 (A-6E Intruder), distance 38nm. I can only attack with BOL...

Thank's

Andy
Attachments
TheSevent..1990_1.zip
(545.73 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
Cik
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:22 am

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by Cik »

your ROE is set to weapons HOLD across the board, which is why they aren't firing.

once i changed the ROE to weapons tight (as is normal.. why exactly it's set to hold who knows) it worked okay.
U6443
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:24 pm

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by U6443 »

Yes, but it should be possible to fire manual the ARM, shouldn't it?

Andy
Cik
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:22 am

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by Cik »

if you are weapons tight you can manually allocate to targets with shift+f1

if you really, really want to BOL it for some reason, my advice is to do a BOL directly in front of your formation a small distance. the problem you're going to have it twofold:

1. the BOL HARM randomly chooses a radar type (or at least it seems like this is true) meaning you aren't even sure it's going to pick something in range

2. target allocation is going to be all over the place because of 1.

if your objective is to blind or sink the enemy ships, why not just fire the HARMs the normal way?

really, BOL only really shines on weapons that require it (TALD, iTALD?) or weapons that have a mid-course update option (TACTOM tomahawks)

everything else it's kind of a weird compromise, and on HARMs especially it's very awkward.

U6443
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:24 pm

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by U6443 »

Hi
I'm sorry but it is only possible BOL. Did you use my savefile? Group 4725 (Intruder) with hold or thight doesn't matter, only BOL possible against BPK Udaloy...

really strange. Anybody else can try my savefile?

Andy
U6443
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:24 pm

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by U6443 »

I never use automatic fire, always manual control. And manual control is not possible...Can anybody confirm this with my savefile?
Cik
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:22 am

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by Cik »

it's because at the start they aren't emitting

turn on emissions, they don't even snap-on any radars until the first udaloy gains visual of your hornet-launched harpoons

after that it works entirely as normal

shift+f1
allocate HARMs as desired

they work

what's the issue?
U6443
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:24 pm

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by U6443 »

HI
Thank's.[:D][:D]. I now see that i have no emissions on[&o].. (but actually i don't want that my planes are radiating)
But do i really want to turn on my emission only to fire my HARMS? Maybe better to wait until they detect my TALD. It seems my timing was not perfect and the TALD missiles are to late (or my TALD are flying slow with only 400kts[:D])


I thought that my TALD are already detected 12 miles and 10000ft away from the enemy???? Or is the AI so good that they turn on their radars only to harpoon and not to TALD?

Maybe i have to test this with a demo scenario

thewood1
Posts: 9106
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:24 pm
Location: Boston

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by thewood1 »

He means the ship's emmissions, I think.
Cik
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:22 am

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by Cik »

aye, the udaloy (and the other ships) aren't emitting at all.

they only do a radar snap-on once they visually tally your harpoons to engage them with CIWS and other point defence.

HARMs are a fully autonomous seekerhead, they don't need to emit to seek, like heatseekers. but the thing they are attacking has to be radiating at some point, so they know where to go before they blow up.

as to why at least one of them isn't radiating: it seems unwise but maybe they are under the false impression that they are sneaky.
U6443
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:24 pm

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by U6443 »

Yes, if the ship doesn't radiate then you can only BOL attack with HARM.

So how do you let the ship radiate?

1) attack with misiles (TALD or harpoon, but it seems that the ship doesn't turn on radar on the TALD....)
2) turn on radar on my units in the air (I don't want to do this).

Andy
mikmykWS
Posts: 7185
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:34 pm

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by mikmykWS »

Thanks for posting the scenario. A good tip for troubleshooting stuff if you're new is to watch in editor mode to see what happens. You can learn a ton about the game this way.

This is what I see. The author has set the Gorshov group to passive (fine) but unfortunately the Hawkeyeski which is supposed to provide coverage is just in range which means small targets like decoys and missiles won't be detected until very late if at all. Fact you'll likely be getting esm or visual sittings of missiles themselves from the ships before the Hawkeyeski sees them. This is obviously an issue for the kind of attack you're trying to conduct because you're depending on something to trigger the Gorshov's groups to go active which will allow you to attack with HARMS. This unfortunately doesn't happen unit very late which by then your aircraft are way too close etc. Regardless this is a game play or scenario edit issue and not a game bug. I'd work on a different attack strategy or talk with the guy that built the scenario about this.

Mike
U6443
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:24 pm

RE: AGM-88Harm ARM BOL activation Point?

Post by U6443 »

Thank's. I agree completely

Andy
Post Reply

Return to “Command: Modern Operations series”