Japan Questions

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Fighting as Japan makes learning the Krebs Cycle look easy.

Been working at the Japanese economy for ~3 years and I think I'm finally satisfied with how I have it. Don't get me wrong I don't play multiple turns a day and there's been a whole lot of experimentation. Many, many restarts. Longest game to date was to Dec. '42. Current game I'm still in Dec. '41, but I think its a real keeper.

I also used a 'system' that I would only recommend for myself, as its rather lengthy. I concentrated on only one facet of the game at a time. Such as, do nothing but game mechanics. Next, game mechanics plus get all resources/oil/fuel to where it needs to be, etc. Its been a challenge and a joy.[;)]

[rustysi]

And the M8 Zero is kind of the same issue as the Ki100 below, it is not really that good (slow) on paper at least...

Also correct, but at least when it comes to carrier A/C they're all usually slower no matter what nation they represent. Comes from the nature of the beast, landing on a carrier is little more than a controlled crash.[:D] They need to be beefier to sustain this and the added weight usually means less speed.

On a different note and to add what I stated above, for Japan to get the M8 in late '42 is absurd as the U.S. will not have the F6F 'til mid '43. I highly doubt Japan had the capacity to advance quicker under wartime conditions than the U.S. For that matter IRL she didn't even have the capacity to keep abreast, but the game kinda lets her do it for 'play balance'. I have no real problem with that because the alternative would be no opponents. Ever play a game called 'France 1940'. Ever play it again.[:D]

P.S. I have 'France 1940', and no I never played it again.

[PaxMondo]

Mmm, the M8 is still an A6M ... it isn't anything like an F6F ... nor is it like the progression of the F4F to the F6F. Some JFB's may get all hot and sweaty about it, but I don't. The A6M line is just not competitive after 12/42. So spending effort to get any after the A6M3a is just kinda funny to me. Sure the M5 gets armor, but I don't have any pilot shortages after about 4/42 and the M5 is still easy meat to any 2nd gen allied fighter (early corsair, F6F, etc.). do you build them as IJ? Sure, what else is there. but is it in any way a game changer? hardly.

A7M is what you need and no matter what you do, getting that plane any time in '43 is very tough to do. Now a good question is could they have? My opinion is yes, but they clearly did not and for some specific reasons. It all revolved around the engine, specifically the induction. They could not get the 2 stage blower to work and they wasted 3 years on it ... a very bad case of NIH. They easily could have obtained what they needed from an Axis partner, but chose not to. Bad choice IMHO. Did it change the outcome of the war? No. But they also failed to provide the best possible armament to their pilots ... and i do have an issue with that ... but that's another conversation.

But as to the Oscar/Zero upgrades; PFFT. P___ing in the wind. They wasted an incredible amount of resource upgrading those planes as they couldn't get a better engine for 3 years. All their new designs were too big/heavy for the Ha-35 so they couldn't move them into production until the new Ha-4x series were available ... and the Ha-35 was underpowered in 1939 ... by '42 it should have been retired, instead it was the primary engine for 3 more years of war. Don't get me wrong, the Zero design was amazing ... but if the IJ had had engines similar to the allies ... well if wishes were horses, beggars would ride as my grandma always said.

EDIT: Corrected F6F ...

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

This is another A/C line I have issues with, although in this case they are for historical/personal reasons. The Ki-100 was not technically a research line of the Ki-61. Japan had been given the plans for the Daimler DB-60x (whatever) to build on license. They apparently decided to fiddle with it or whatever, and they got it wrong. They spent a lot of time and effort trying to get it right, but never succeeded. In the mean time they had built a number of fuselages for the Ki-61. The Ki-100 was simply a marriage of that fuselage to a radial engine.

I have read a different story. The Ki-100 was a re-engined Ki-61 and the reason was a shortage of inline engines after US air raids had damaged the engine factory. So they had 200+ freshly produced Ki-61 airframes sitting around but no more inline engines coming out of the factory. Some bright guy decided to mate a radial engine which was available with the available airframes and voilà, the Ki-100 was born. It proved to be a successful plane so the "re-engined airframes design" got refined into the Ki-100II design with freshly produced airframes. In this light, the research line in the game seems ok to me.

I agree that going to the M8 via Rufe shortcut without researching the entire Zero tree is cheesy. but I don't understand the 'break' between M2 and M3 - they are not that different than a Ki-61 from a Ki-100, no? Well, there is the editor to link M2 to M3 and to make the Rufe a dead end.

[Alpha77]

Seems many Japanese pilots agree with our views. Eg. I posted a pilot interview a while back here, who said the Oscar was a disaster. Now people come and say that is only a single guy saying that but in general pilots wanted these planes as they were cause they wanted manouvre above all other aspects. However I watched some more interviews and turns out also the Zero gets flak from ex-pilots. One of them said it was no combat machine but good for airshows. He took the example of George as being finally a combat ready plane [;)] One told a story they would not take parachutes with them even on long flights from Rabaul to Guadalcanal cause of the warrior spirit and weight. He said this was incredible stupid as they lost many good pilots also to exhaustation and tiredness. Some pilots that fought for day after day and than make such long flights would simply fall asleep and the plane plunges in the ocean...again with the rotation of pilots system the Allies were also much better in this regard. But this is modelled in game if you abuse your pilots and planes like they did in reality you will also lose them to ops and fatigue...

Mind you others did not share the view of above about Zero, they thought it was phantastic even wit the flaws. But if ex-"aces" are so outspoken saying a plane for airshows yes very good...but not so much for hard combat that says something right [;)] The best feature of Zero seemed to be the handling and easy fast responding controls.

Allied pilots had much less complaints but they won in the end.

Yes I agree that IJ should not be able to get 45 planes in 43....this might be possible but than you need to invest a lot of effort in only 1 or 2 models. There is an AAR were someone tried to get the jet planes much earlier - but it did not work out.

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I have read a different story. The Ki-100 was a re-engined Ki-61 and the reason was a shortage of inline engines after US air raids had damaged the engine factory. So they had 200+ freshly produced Ki-61 airframes sitting around but no more inline engines coming out of the factory. Some bright guy decided to mate a radial engine which was available with the available airframes and voilà, the Ki-100 was born. It proved to be a successful plane so the "re-engined airframes design" got refined into the Ki-100II design with freshly produced airframes. In this light, the research line in the game seems ok to me.

Another reason not named was shortage of precission machinery to manufacture DB engines. Or inline engines in general they had no experience with building and maintaining them.

Read here for that:
https://books.google.de/books?id=-X1_Ag ... an&f=false

(US put an embargo on machinery, some were imported from Germany, but when Russo-German war started Germany stopped export they needed every machine themselves now)

[MakeeLearn]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Fighting as Japan makes learning the Krebs Cycle look easy.

Been working at the Japanese economy for ~3 years and I think I'm finally satisfied with how I have it. Don't get me wrong I don't play multiple turns a day and there's been a whole lot of experimentation. Many, many restarts. Longest game to date was to Dec. '42. Current game I'm still in Dec. '41, but I think its a real keeper.

I also used a 'system' that I would only recommend for myself, as its rather lengthy. I concentrated on only one facet of the game at a time. Such as, do nothing but game mechanics. Next, game mechanics plus get all resources/oil/fuel to where it needs to be, etc. Its been a challenge and a joy.[;)]

It's more fun than the Krebs Cycle. Different creative paths to take in the "what if's". I wanted to start off as Japan, then decided to start as the Allies in order to get a handle on the overall game. Does look like a joyful challenge

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Mmm, the M8 is still an A6M ... it isn't anything like an F7F ... nor is it like the progression of the F4F to the F7F. Some JFB's may get all hot and sweaty about it, but I don't. The A6M line is just not competitive after 12/42. So spending effort to get any after the A6M3a is just kinda funny to me. Sure the M5 gets armor, but I don't have any pilot shortages after about 4/42 and the M5 is still easy meat to any 2nd gen allied fighter (early corsair, F7F, etc.). do you build them as IJ? Sure, what else is there. but is it in any way a game changer? hardly.

A7M is what you need and no matter what you do, getting that plane any time in '43 is very tough to do. Now a good question is could they have? My opinion is yes, but they clearly did not and for some specific reasons. It all revolved around the engine, specifically the induction. They could not get the 2 stage blower to work and they wasted 3 years on it ... a very bad case of NIH. They easily could have obtained what they needed from an Axis partner, but chose not to. Bad choice IMHO. Did it change the outcome of the war? No. But they also failed to provide the best possible armament to their pilots ... and i do have an issue with that ... but that's another conversation.

But as to the Oscar/Zero upgrades; PFFT. P___ing in the wind. They wasted an incredible amount of resource upgrading those planes as they couldn't get a better engine for 3 years. All their new designs were too big/heavy for the Ha-35 so they couldn't move them into production until the new Ha-4x series were available ... and the Ha-35 was underpowered in 1939 ... by '42 it should have been retired, instead it was the primary engine for 3 more years of war. Don't get me wrong, the Zero design was amazing ... but if the IJ had had engines similar to the allies ... well if wishes were horses, beggars would ride as my grandma always said.

F7F? Can't tell if you mean F6F or F8F.

THe A6M8 is roughly comparable to the F6F IMO. It's no Corsair, but the Corsair doesn't arrive in good enough numbers to sustain naval operations until 9/44.

[rustysi]

I have read a different story. The Ki-100 was a re-engined Ki-61 and the reason was a shortage of inline engines after US air raids had damaged the engine factory.

Don't doubt it, but Japan had problems with the engine from day one. They really had no experience with liquid cooled in line engines, and they muffed their one and only try.

[InfiniteMonkey]

Yup, your right. I wish I had seen those threads before I did my own research. Not sure how I missed them. Thanks for pointing them out.

Changes a few things, or makes some approaches less beneficial...

[InfiniteMonkey]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

3. You can accelerate late models of some air frames very easily.
a. Research the A6M2-N Rufe at 5 factories of size 30.
b. Build the A6M8's engine pool up to 500. (it uses the Ha33)
c. As each Rufe research factory gets fully built, switch it to A6M8. You must convert the factory one step at a time: A6M2-N to A6M5, A6M5 to A6M5b, A6M5b to A6M5c, A6M5c to A6M8. Notice that upgrading along the aircraft's upgrade path does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays FULLY REPAIRED.
d. Plan on flying the A6M8 starting in late 42 instead of 8/45. Yes, this really works.

Wow, I'm aware of this little 'charm', but I had forgotten about it as I refuse to use it, and I've only played as Japan. I have no idea why the devs left the Rufe in a development line like this, but they did. In addition you do understand that you must wait for each A/C to reach production before going to the next one. I know that the game will let you just make the jump (or I believe it will), but most players realize that doing so is not 'cricket'. IOW house rule. 'All A/C must reach production before the next in the line may be researched.' Do people understand why I want so many in my game (HR's), its to avoid situations like this. The last thing I need to see is an M8 Zero in late '42, its a deal breaker and I've wasted ~1 year of my life to get there, game over.

e. A similar plan works with the Ki-61Ia to Ki-61 Ib to Ki-61 Id to Ki 61-II KAI to Ki-100-Ia

This is another A/C line I have issues with, although in this case they are for historical/personal reasons. The Ki-100 was not technically a research line of the Ki-61. Japan had been given the plans for the Daimler DB-60x (whatever) to build on license. They apparently decided to fiddle with it or whatever, and they got it wrong. They spent a lot of time and effort trying to get it right, but never succeeded. In the mean time they had built a number of fuselages for the Ki-61. The Ki-100 was simply a marriage of that fuselage to a radial engine. Now to be honest I don't recall how the line works in the game, but if I had my choice I would make it work whichever way is less advantageous to the IJ player. Again this is just for personal/historical reasons, and i'd have to look into it and come to some sort of agreement with my opponent. TBH I don't even want an all historical game, but I feel there should be some limits on what the Japanese player may/may not do. That's just me.

Now I don't mean to be harsh and you can play anyway you and your opponent choose to, as long as you let him/her understand that this is what you will do, and he/she agrees.

At any rate the above is JMHO. YMMV.[:)]

By that logic, Allies should not get P51's and should be stuck permanently with A36 Apaches. Trying out new engines happens a lot when you look at the history of development of various WW2 aircraft. One main difference between the B5N1 and B5N2 is the engine. The A6M was originally designed with the Nakajima Zuisei 13 engine instead of the Mitsubishi Sakae 12. Re-engining an airframe to get better results is no great leap of imagination and there are numerous precedents to mention.

I'm not sure why you find it so gamey or unrealistic.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I read your thing very fast and could probably read it again more carefully, but there seems to be a misconception that R&D factories contribute nothing until they are "fully" repaired. The repair format is just a simplification, they aren't being repaired at all, they're being built from scratch (if they start at 0) Anyway, factories at value "1" do contribute. If a factory is set to R&D Franks, by all means let it do so. I can't imagine a justification for not doing so. You might consider converting another R&D factory or two to Franks.

There's no misconception here, they must be fully repaired before they may contribute to R&D advancement. Were you sleeping during that lesson gorn?[:D]

hibernating maybe.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Mmm, the M8 is still an A6M ... it isn't anything like an F7F ... nor is it like the progression of the F4F to the F7F. Some JFB's may get all hot and sweaty about it, but I don't. The A6M line is just not competitive after 12/42. So spending effort to get any after the A6M3a is just kinda funny to me. Sure the M5 gets armor, but I don't have any pilot shortages after about 4/42 and the M5 is still easy meat to any 2nd gen allied fighter (early corsair, F7F, etc.). do you build them as IJ? Sure, what else is there. but is it in any way a game changer? hardly.

A7M is what you need and no matter what you do, getting that plane any time in '43 is very tough to do. Now a good question is could they have? My opinion is yes, but they clearly did not and for some specific reasons. It all revolved around the engine, specifically the induction. They could not get the 2 stage blower to work and they wasted 3 years on it ... a very bad case of NIH. They easily could have obtained what they needed from an Axis partner, but chose not to. Bad choice IMHO. Did it change the outcome of the war? No. But they also failed to provide the best possible armament to their pilots ... and i do have an issue with that ... but that's another conversation.

But as to the Oscar/Zero upgrades; PFFT. P___ing in the wind. They wasted an incredible amount of resource upgrading those planes as they couldn't get a better engine for 3 years. All their new designs were too big/heavy for the Ha-35 so they couldn't move them into production until the new Ha-4x series were available ... and the Ha-35 was underpowered in 1939 ... by '42 it should have been retired, instead it was the primary engine for 3 more years of war. Don't get me wrong, the Zero design was amazing ... but if the IJ had had engines similar to the allies ... well if wishes were horses, beggars would ride as my grandma always said.

F7F? Can't tell if you mean F6F or F8F.

THe A6M8 is roughly comparable to the F6F IMO. It's no Corsair, but the Corsair doesn't arrive in good enough numbers to sustain naval operations until 9/44.

Sorry, F6F ...

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

THe A6M8 is roughly comparable to the F6F IMO.

Well, all I can say is I will take the F6F every day and twice on Sunday's over any A6M airframe. [;)]

F6F is faster, higher DUR, and better armament.

Sam and the F6F make a good match, and there the A7M has a slight (but noticeable) advantage overall IMHO. But of course by the time you can get the A7M, F8F and F4U are common and they are definitely better ...

All opinion, and every player has their own. No big deal ...

[Anthropoid]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

A7M is what you need and no matter what you do, getting that plane any time in '43 is very tough to do. Now a good question is could they have? My opinion is yes, but they clearly did not and for some specific reasons. It all revolved around the engine, specifically the induction. They could not get the 2 stage blower to work and they wasted 3 years on it ... a very bad case of NIH. They easily could have obtained what they needed from an Axis partner, but chose not to. Bad choice IMHO. Did it change the outcome of the war? No. But they also failed to provide the best possible armament to their pilots ... and i do have an issue with that ... but that's another conversation.

No offense meant to Japan as a whole, I love the culture and people but . . . it seems like overall, the Japanese "High Command" were _incompetent_. Were they outmatched from the start? Mmmm, not _exactly_. Were they destined to quickly become outmatched, yes no doubt about that. Nonetheless, I think it is pretty clear from some of the stunning success some JFB have had against competent allied PBEM opponents that Japan had what it needed to achieve greater success than it did, and to thus have been in a reasonable position to sue for agreeable peace terms.

I want to learn more about what transpired within the society between say 1900 and 1931. It seems to me that this is when the seeds of the destruction of the Empire of Japan were being planted.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

A7M is what you need and no matter what you do, getting that plane any time in '43 is very tough to do. Now a good question is could they have? My opinion is yes, but they clearly did not and for some specific reasons. It all revolved around the engine, specifically the induction. They could not get the 2 stage blower to work and they wasted 3 years on it ... a very bad case of NIH. They easily could have obtained what they needed from an Axis partner, but chose not to. Bad choice IMHO. Did it change the outcome of the war? No. But they also failed to provide the best possible armament to their pilots ... and i do have an issue with that ... but that's another conversation.

No offense meant to Japan as a whole, I love the culture and people but . . . it seems like overall, the Japanese "High Command" were _incompetent_. Were they outmatched from the start? Mmmm, not _exactly_. Were they destined to quickly become outmatched, yes no doubt about that. Nonetheless, I think it is pretty clear from some of the stunning success some JFB have had against competent allied PBEM opponents that Japan had what it needed to achieve greater success than it did, and to thus have been in a reasonable position to sue for agreeable peace terms.

I want to learn more about what transpired within the society between say 1900 and 1931. It seems to me that this is when the seeds of the destruction of the Empire of Japan were being planted.

I would be cautious about extrapolating game results into potential reality. IJFB's can achieve early success LARGELY due to their perfect intelligence on allied force dispositions and reinforcement schedules.

[btd64]

Pax, I'm wondering if you could put your Airframe ideas into a chart or spreadsheet/document, etc.? I for one would like to see it and maybe use it if I get involved with the Japanese side again. Others would probably like to see your thoughts as well. What do you say?....GP

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: General Patton

Pax, I'm wondering if you could put your Airframe ideas into a chart or spreadsheet/document, etc.? I for one would like to see it and maybe use it if I get involved with the Japanese side again. Others would probably like to see your thoughts as well. What do you say?....GP

GP,

If I had time ... I still work full time, I teach graduate level classes part time, and I have a 7yo ... [;)]

That's why there is no PBEM for me and my current AI game (started early this year) has almost reached 1Feb42. [:D]

A lot of things I want to do just don't happen yet ...

[Anthropoid]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

A7M is what you need and no matter what you do, getting that plane any time in '43 is very tough to do. Now a good question is could they have? My opinion is yes, but they clearly did not and for some specific reasons. It all revolved around the engine, specifically the induction. They could not get the 2 stage blower to work and they wasted 3 years on it ... a very bad case of NIH. They easily could have obtained what they needed from an Axis partner, but chose not to. Bad choice IMHO. Did it change the outcome of the war? No. But they also failed to provide the best possible armament to their pilots ... and i do have an issue with that ... but that's another conversation.

No offense meant to Japan as a whole, I love the culture and people but . . . it seems like overall, the Japanese "High Command" were _incompetent_. Were they outmatched from the start? Mmmm, not _exactly_. Were they destined to quickly become outmatched, yes no doubt about that. Nonetheless, I think it is pretty clear from some of the stunning success some JFB have had against competent allied PBEM opponents that Japan had what it needed to achieve greater success than it did, and to thus have been in a reasonable position to sue for agreeable peace terms.

I want to learn more about what transpired within the society between say 1900 and 1931. It seems to me that this is when the seeds of the destruction of the Empire of Japan were being planted.

I would be cautious about extrapolating game results into potential reality. IJFB's can achieve early success LARGELY due to their perfect intelligence on allied force dispositions and reinforcement schedules.

It is a good point. But then, how "in the dark" could the Japanese High Command have been?

Up until what? 15 January 1935? (the date when Japan walked out on the Second London Naval Treaty talks) Japan was "buddies" with the Anglo and Western powers. Many of her ships had been built in the Great Britain. Much of her military doctrine and technology had been initially gained through friendly relationships with either Britain or the United States, or France, eh? Some of her top military leaders (in both army and navy) had undertaken education in Europe or the U.S. There were large Japanese expatriate communities in many parts of the Pacific, and including the Western United States, and certainly these communities facilitated human intelligence and basic social intelligence gathering. Given the general transparency of American if not also the Western European societies, it might not have been too difficult to come up with a reasonable estimate to total OOB as well as roughly where it was deployed and how long it might take to recruit/build more eh?

I agree, the precision and perfect accuracy of player intell is unrealistic, but on the whole a basic knowledge must have been in hand for both sides?

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

I agree, the precision and perfect accuracy of player intell is unrealistic, but on the whole a basic knowledge must have been in hand for both sides?

Yes, and no.

OK, I'm really trying here not to offend. If I do, not intentional, but the door was opened and I was invited ...

You are both over-simplifying and over-looking too much about human behavior. Here is just brief sampling ...

All sides thought/assumed everyone was cheating (most were in some fashion), both sides were very concerned about 'black' ships, and then finally once hostilities opened, both sides knew that enemy losses were being exaggerated, but didn't know to what extent. Finally both sides hid actual losses from their respective public for long periods ...

I could go on for weeks ...

How to proceed: read memoirs from the commanders of the day ... Doenitz and Von Manstein are good places to start ... then you need to have experience with command. I don't how else to say it; either you have had people under your direction suffer as a result of your decisions or you haven't. Or let me put it another way; the book lists used in the study of martial history at say VMI or Anapolis as compared to say Berkley are just a 'little' bit different. They are different because the teachers at the institutions, while all excellent, have a different perspective.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone here, but at the same time life experiences do matter. They impact perspective. Perspective is what this is about. Nimitz' perspective was vastly different than most players ... to see how far, just read his commm's ... they have largely been declassified and you can download and read all of his missives from the entire war ... I think it is some 3000 pages ...

My perspective is; I have been a student of this for 50 years in various capacities. I have lost people who were my responsibility. I had 29 funerals in 3 days once. I work very diligently every day to avoid a repetition ... I have been mostly, but not perfectly successful, in that.