Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

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glyphoglossus
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Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by glyphoglossus »

Hi, all. Newbie here. Just been through the first pass at the manual and gone through a couple of rounds of the Coral Sea scenario. Obviously there is a lot to take in, and I definitely need to take on the manual again (many sections I skimmed to get an idea of what is possible, etc., but did not read in-depth: my plan is to re-visit). I have some questions about gameplay that may very well be in the manual or some other obvious reference that I missed, or may be just common knowledge. Either way, if someone could point me in the right direction, that would be great!

(1) How to coordinate mixed-group strike of different altitudes. From what I can make out, the primary factor deciding whether or not multiple groups (fighter, dive bombers, torpedo bombers) attack a target together or separately is by setting their altitude to be the same. However, it makes sense to set the torpedo bomber altitude to be low (e.g., 500 ft) and the dive bombers high (e.g., 15 or 20 K), does it not? So is it a trade off between balance mixed-element strikes and optimum altitude?

(2) How to set different search ranges for different arcs? E.g., I want my search planes to search 0-90 degrees at a range of 10 hexes, and 90-180 degrees at range of 5 hexes. Assuming the planes are from the same group, how can this be done?

(3) Do enemy ships have to be spotted by search planes from the attacking task force to initiate an attack, or will any spotting from any source do? E.g., if I have land-based Catalina's operating to cover the area I know the enemy TF is, do I still need to set up searches from my carriers? Or can I just expect my carriers to launch the strike when the land-based Catalina's (or some other source, e.g. submarines) locate the enemy fleet?

(4) There is a enemy surface fleet nearby. Further away, somewhere, are the enemy carriers. How can I set up my carriers to NOT attack the enemy surface fleet, while they continue to search for the enemy carriers and be prepared to launch a strike on the enemy carriers as soon as they find them.

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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by Leandros »


A lot of good questions here....[;)]..surely someone shall assist you shortly.

Fred
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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by rustysi »

Don't have too much time left for now, but here's a bit.
(1) How to coordinate mixed-group strike of different altitudes. From what I can make out, the primary factor deciding whether or not multiple groups (fighter, dive bombers, torpedo bombers) attack a target together or separately is by setting their altitude to be the same. However, it makes sense to set the torpedo bomber altitude to be low (e.g., 500 ft) and the dive bombers high (e.g., 15 or 20 K), does it not? So is it a trade off between balance mixed-element strikes and optimum altitude?

Launch strike groups from the same altitude, this will help with coordination. Dive bombers will only dive bomb between 10-15k altitude. Above and below they glide bomb, not as accurate. Torpedo bombers will drop to the proper altitude to bomb no matter where their set.
(2) How to set different search ranges for different arcs? E.g., I want my search planes to search 0-90 degrees at a range of 10 hexes, and 90-180 degrees at range of 5 hexes. Assuming the planes are from the same group, how can this be done?

You could divide the group and set the components separately. Other than that its a no go.
(3) Do enemy ships have to be spotted by search planes from the attacking task force to initiate an attack, or will any spotting from any source do? E.g., if I have land-based Catalina's operating to cover the area I know the enemy TF is, do I still need to set up searches from my carriers? Or can I just expect my carriers to launch the strike when the land-based Catalina's (or some other source, e.g. submarines) locate the enemy fleet?

The key here is not where the search comes from, but the DL (detection level) of the target. The higher the DL the more likely an attack will go. You can't differentiate which target will be attacked, as that is done 'under the hood'. It'll be based on many factors, such as DL, range, leaders die rolls, weather, and on and on. That kinda answers number four as well.

Anyway, gotta go. Good luck and good hunting. Just remember its a long haul to learn this game.[:)]





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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by Dili »

Torpedo planes drop to release altitude even if you send them at 20000ft.

You can't choose what TF to attack except by positioning your force or limit the range.
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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by Leandros »

ORIGINAL: Dili

Torpedo planes drop to release altitude even if you send them at 20000ft.

You can't choose what TF to attack except by positioning your force or limit the range.

Does it help if y station an LR CAP over it?

Fred
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Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf
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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by glyphoglossus »

Thanks for the replies all.

With regards to the torpedo drop heights (i.e., needing to set a low altitude to for torpedo strikes), I was going by this post (which also suggests that it is necessary for carriers to organize their own native searches to find their own targets, and that carrier strikes will not be launched against targets detected by third-party assets such as, e.g. land-based aircraft):

(I am not allowed to post a link due to being a new member, but the following can be found in the "newbie tutorial" thread.
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

CAP is not set by the base or the carrier screen, you do it in the air unit screen, over on the lower right side. Set the Mission as "Sweep" or "Escort", then choose a CAP % and a range. DO NOT set a long range - this will dilute the number of planes available in the patch of sky over your carriers. Range 1 is what I use most.

It is not sufficient to have your PBYs spot the enemy carriers one day and expect your force to strike the next day - the enemy will have moved. You need to set some of your aircraft on search. Note that one of your SBD squadrons is designated VS - that means it is expected to do some search. I set 20% search, max range for the aircraft. I do not bother with search vectors - the results seem better if you do not specify a direction. Cruiser float planes should be set to 100% search - they have no other mission (their pilots are not trained enough in ASW to do a good job of that). Set your bombers to Naval Attack. DBs at 10,000 feet to make their most accurate attack and TBs at 1000 feet to sneak in low, whether armed with torpedoes or bombs.

Once your carrier search finds the enemy (usually in the morning air phase) they will attack in the PM air phase, weather permitting. Weather is the wild card that can decide the battle for either side. IRL, Zuikaku escaped damage because it hid in a rain squall, and I believe the USN carriers were also hidden by weather part of the time.

Obviously, I have a long way to go in this game, but am looking forward to the learning curve, and really appreciate the willingness of this community to help!
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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Leandros

ORIGINAL: Dili

Torpedo planes drop to release altitude even if you send them at 20000ft.

You can't choose what TF to attack except by positioning your force or limit the range.

Does it help if y station an LR CAP over it?

Fred

No.

You can't position LRCAP over an enemy task force.

Alfred
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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: glyphoglossus

Hi, all. Newbie here. Just been through the first pass at the manual and gone through a couple of rounds of the Coral Sea scenario. Obviously there is a lot to take in, and I definitely need to take on the manual again (many sections I skimmed to get an idea of what is possible, etc., but did not read in-depth: my plan is to re-visit). I have some questions about gameplay that may very well be in the manual or some other obvious reference that I missed, or may be just common knowledge. Either way, if someone could point me in the right direction, that would be great!


The manual does cover this. On the forum look for posts on the subject from the devs (in particular theElf), LoBaron and myself. There is plenty of material for bed time reading/study.


(1) How to coordinate mixed-group strike of different altitudes. From what I can make out, the primary factor deciding whether or not multiple groups (fighter, dive bombers, torpedo bombers) attack a target together or separately is by setting their altitude to be the same. However, it makes sense to set the torpedo bomber altitude to be low (e.g., 500 ft) and the dive bombers high (e.g., 15 or 20 K), does it not? So is it a trade off between balance mixed-element strikes and optimum altitude?


LoBaron's air coordination guide is a sticky in the War Room.

Air coordination requires same altitude. Air units at different altitudes may cooperate but that is not the same thing. It is possible to see DBs set to 14k and TB set to 5k arriving in the same package. In this instance the escorting fighters would have been set to one of the bombing types altitude. Search for posts on the subject from me.



(2) How to set different search ranges for different arcs? E.g., I want my search planes to search 0-90 degrees at a range of 10 hexes, and 90-180 degrees at range of 5 hexes. Assuming the planes are from the same group, how can this be done?


An air unit can only have one range set. Nor, as suggested by others, can you really in practical terms sub divide an air unit on a carrier as the maximum number of air units on a carrier is 5. USN carriers start off with a fighter unit, two dive bomber units and a torpedo bomber unit. That gives you 4 straight off and as a unit gets broken into 3 sub-components, you would end up with 6 units thus necessitating the removal to shore of one of the units.


(3) Do enemy ships have to be spotted by search planes from the attacking task force to initiate an attack, or will any spotting from any source do? E.g., if I have land-based Catalina's operating to cover the area I know the enemy TF is, do I still need to set up searches from my carriers? Or can I just expect my carriers to launch the strike when the land-based Catalina's (or some other source, e.g. submarines) locate the enemy fleet?


An air attack is not dependent on the same unit having detected the enemy previously. However, relying solely on land aircraft reduces the number of eyes in the sky to relatively static search vectors.


(4) There is a enemy surface fleet nearby. Further away, somewhere, are the enemy carriers. How can I set up my carriers to NOT attack the enemy surface fleet, while they continue to search for the enemy carriers and be prepared to launch a strike on the enemy carriers as soon as they find them.


You can't. Naval attack targets are determined by the AI which will choose depending on target value, maximum detection level (MDL).



Alfred
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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by rustysi »

An air unit can only have one range set. Nor, as suggested by others, can you really in practical terms sub divide an air unit on a carrier as the maximum number of air units on a carrier is 5. USN carriers start off with a fighter unit, two dive bomber units and a torpedo bomber unit. That gives you 4 straight off and as a unit gets broken into 3 sub-components, you would end up with 6 units thus necessitating the removal to shore of one of the units

If you are referring to my response this is not what I was suggesting, although I should have been more specific. As stated I was a bit short of time, and as I've always said (not that the op knows that) I never set search arcs within TF's. I almost always do it with LBA, the only time I won't is when the air unit only has a few A/C. So to clarify what I was referring to, you could do this with your LBA search assets. Not saying its a good idea or not, just that you can do it. Know that when you divide groups you almost always have one or two sections with a poor leader. For me I would use multiple groups to do what the op suggests, although I don't see the reason to do what he wishes.

Something else to the op, be aware that all searches out to 4 hexes are done full circle, 360 degrees. In addition, what you are quoting above is someones' 'preferred tactics', not necessarily what works best. BTW I'm not saying his tactics are bad, they're just not what I would do. For me when assigning CAP I prefer a layered approach, such that no ones TB's sneak below my A/C.[;)] Now understand there is almost nothing guaranteed in this game. You will think time and again that everything is set only to have your 'perfect op' fly south. What's the old military axiom? Something like 'All plans are useless once the forces make contact', of course that's a weak paraphrase.

Anyway, hope this helps.
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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by Will_L_OLD »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: glyphoglossus

(2) How to set different search ranges for different arcs? E.g., I want my search planes to search 0-90 degrees at a range of 10 hexes, and 90-180 degrees at range of 5 hexes. Assuming the planes are from the same group, how can this be done?


An air unit can only have one range set. Nor, as suggested by others, can you really in practical terms sub divide an air unit on a carrier as the maximum number of air units on a carrier is 5. USN carriers start off with a fighter unit, two dive bomber units and a torpedo bomber unit. That gives you 4 straight off and as a unit gets broken into 3 sub-components, you would end up with 6 units thus necessitating the removal to shore of one of the units.


{quote]


Alfred

Couldn't you accomplish the subdivision of an air unit on a carrier without exceeding the limit of 5
by dividing one of the carrier air units into its 3 subcomponent units and then reattaching one of those
to its parent unit? Haven't tried this but I shall tomorrow [:)]

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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Will_L


Couldn't you accomplish the subdivision of an air unit on a carrier without exceeding the limit of 5
by dividing one of the carrier air units into its 3 subcomponent units and then reattaching one of those
to its parent unit? Haven't tried this but I shall tomorrow [:)]


No.

1. An air unit which qualifies for splitting, is split into 3 equal parts. Subsequently all three sub-components are needed to recombine, you can't only recombine 2 sub-components and leave the third sub-component as a stand alone sub-unit.

2. You can try disbanding one of the sub-components into another unit (need not necessarily be one of the other sub-components) but then you have the problem of not being able to recombine the sub-components to reconstitute the original unit. The net result over time (as the unit with the supernumerary airframes is brought back in line with it's TOE) is a smaller available airforce strength. Plus when the disbanded unit returns, you are back to square one.

3. A scenario designer can elect to have an air unit to have the option to split into 2 rather than the standard 3 splits. Or no splits if they prefer. But in the official scenarios, air units which qualify for splitting are broken into 3.

Alfred
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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by glyphoglossus »

ORIGINAL: Alfred
The manual does cover this. On the forum look for posts on the subject from the devs (in particular theElf), LoBaron and myself. There is plenty of material for bed time reading/study.

Definitely plenty of reading! And even more to digest, if that makes sense.
ORIGINAL: Alfred
Air coordination requires same altitude. Air units at different altitudes may cooperate but that is not the same thing. It is possible to see DBs set to 14k and TB set to 5k arriving in the same package. In this instance the escorting fighters would have been set to one of the bombing types altitude. Search for posts on the subject from me.[/I][/color]

Yes, I had read about the altitude-based air coordination thing. What I did not understand was how to achieve this and have the aircraft attack at different/optimum altitudes. It appears that torpedo bombers will drop to the a suitable altitude to release their torpedoes no matter what he mission altitude is.

However, you indicate that, in addition, "it is possible to see DBs set to 14k and TB set to 5k arriving in the same package". I will try and hunt posts regarding this down.

Thanks for the suggestions/advice!
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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by glyphoglossus »

ORIGINAL: rustysi

If you are referring to my response this is not what I was suggesting, although I should have been more specific. As stated I was a bit short of time, and as I've always said (not that the op knows that) I never set search arcs within TF's. I almost always do it with LBA, the only time I won't is when the air unit only has a few A/C. So to clarify what I was referring to, you could do this with your LBA search assets. Not saying its a good idea or not, just that you can do it. Know that when you divide groups you almost always have one or two sections with a poor leader. For me I would use multiple groups to do what the op suggests, although I don't see the reason to do what he wishes.

Interesting. Do you not set TF search arcs because for tactical reasons (e.g., it would be crazy not to search the entire 360 as, e.g., and enemy air attack can loop around and attack from another bearing even though all TF/bases are not at that bearing) or game mechanics reasons (e.g., just works out better that way)?
ORIGINAL: rustysi
Something else to the op, be aware that all searches out to 4 hexes are done full circle, 360 degrees. In addition, what you are quoting above is someones' 'preferred tactics', not necessarily what works best. BTW I'm not saying his tactics are bad, they're just not what I would do.

I did read this before, but did not quite understand it.

Does that mean that if I set the search range to 4 hexes, then no matter what arcs I set the full 360 is searched?

Or does it mean that if I set the search range to 8 hexes, the first 4 hexes around the origin are effectively searched 360, and the only the further 4 hexes have searches restricted to the search arcs?

If the former, it means that I do not need to bother setting search arcs if the search range is less than 5.

ORIGINAL: rustysi
For me when assigning CAP I prefer a layered approach, such that no ones TB's sneak below my A/C.[;)]

Does this mean you set up two CAP patrols, each at different altitudes?

How do you do that without splitting the group?

Also, if you have your bombers set at 10K, don't you have to set your fighters to 10K too to ensure coordination. In which case the CAP patrols of the fighter squadron will also fly at 10K since there is no separate altitude setting for them?



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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by geofflambert »

I noticed you have no avatar. Glyphoglossus means "Bee's Tongue". I made an avatar for you if you like.



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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by glyphoglossus »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I noticed you have no avatar. Glyphoglossus means "Bee's Tongue". I made an avatar for you if you like.



Hah!

Thanks, greatly appreciated!

I got the name "Glyphoglossus" from the burrowing frog genus, Glyphoglossus, which has a single species, Glyphoglossus molossus. I would post a link, but I do not yet qualify for link privileges. I was actually planning on changing the name to "Bearfoot" --- that is my typical online persona. I picked glyphoglossus because I thought I might want to separate my flight sim (IL2/DCS) pursuits from strategy pursuits, but notify me via e-mail when someone replies

Now I think I should just lump it altogether.

Again, thanks for the avatar!
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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by geofflambert »

In the pic, somebody dipped a glass rod into some sugar water and is hand feeding this single bee. It's really cute if you ask me. You can see a drop rolling down the rod in the pic.

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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: glyphoglossus

ORIGINAL: rustysi

If you are referring to my response this is not what I was suggesting, although I should have been more specific. As stated I was a bit short of time, and as I've always said (not that the op knows that) I never set search arcs within TF's. I almost always do it with LBA, the only time I won't is when the air unit only has a few A/C. So to clarify what I was referring to, you could do this with your LBA search assets. Not saying its a good idea or not, just that you can do it. Know that when you divide groups you almost always have one or two sections with a poor leader. For me I would use multiple groups to do what the op suggests, although I don't see the reason to do what he wishes.

Interesting. Do you not set TF search arcs because for tactical reasons (e.g., it would be crazy not to search the entire 360 as, e.g., and enemy air attack can loop around and attack from another bearing even though all TF/bases are not at that bearing) or game mechanics reasons (e.g., just works out better that way)?

Opinions vary on this, but I find that the game mechanics seem to send the search planes toward the enemy location but if I set arcs the chances of sighting the enemy seem less.
ORIGINAL: rustysi
Something else to the op, be aware that all searches out to 4 hexes are done full circle, 360 degrees. In addition, what you are quoting above is someones' 'preferred tactics', not necessarily what works best. BTW I'm not saying his tactics are bad, they're just not what I would do.

I did read this before, but did not quite understand it.

Does that mean that if I set the search range to 4 hexes, then no matter what arcs I set the full 360 is searched?

Yes. Alfred mentioned in a recent thread that the developers decided that routine air activity in the first four hexes would in effect be a search of those hexes.

Or does it mean that if I set the search range to 8 hexes, the first 4 hexes around the origin are effectively searched 360, and the only the further 4 hexes have searches restricted to the search arcs?

If you do not set arcs and there are enough aircraft, all the hexes out to 8 hexes are searched. If you set arcs, and have enough aircraft the only arcs searched out to eight hexes are the ones you set.

If the former, it means that I do not need to bother setting search arcs if the search range is less than 5.

Logically, this should be correct.

ORIGINAL: rustysi
For me when assigning CAP I prefer a layered approach, such that no ones TB's sneak below my A/C.[;)]

Does this mean you set up two CAP patrols, each at different altitudes?

Yes. You need several air units or split your squadron.

How do you do that without splitting the group?

Also, if you have your bombers set at 10K, don't you have to set your fighters to 10K too to ensure coordination. In which case the CAP patrols of the fighter squadron will also fly at 10K since there is no separate altitude setting for them?

Setting the fighters on Escort and the same altitude means they will fly 2000' higher than the strike package. If you set the 2000' interval yourself, the AI might reduce the chances of the fighters escorting the bombers.
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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by rustysi »

Interesting. Do you not set TF search arcs because for tactical reasons

No, I don't set TF search arcs because I will not always know the TFs' attitude. IOW during the turn the TF may move in different directions, depending on the tactical situation. Reaction to other TF's, LBA threats, etc. With that being said how do you search an arc and cover the most likely threat direction. With LBA I may 'look' to places from which the enemy will most likely approach. With multiple, and overlapping arcs I have not been surprised yet. Although its not inconceivable. Besides, when I hit the 'z' key I like to see all the 'search fans', it gives me a warm fuzzy.[:'(]
Does that mean that if I set the search range to 4 hexes, then no matter what arcs I set the full 360 is searched?

Yes.
Or does it mean that if I set the search range to 8 hexes, the first 4 hexes around the origin are effectively searched 360, and the only the further 4 hexes have searches restricted to the search arcs?

Again, yes. Its not an 'or' your questions are asking two different things.
Does this mean you set up two CAP patrols, each at different altitudes?

Its usually three, low CAP, med CAP, and high CAP. I actually got the idea from actual military doctrine. If you watch as many WWII doc films as I do you will hear these terms. Don't know when the U.S. actually started this (I suspect later in the war when we had a plethora of carriers), and early on its not easy to achieve as your forces may be insufficient. As a general rule its what I attempt.

For me it came about because of the chatter you get here, guys talking about TBs 'sneaking' under the CAP, and I wondered if this would cover that. So up to three different groups set to different altitudes.
Also, if you have your bombers set at 10K, don't you have to set your fighters to 10K too to ensure coordination. In which case the CAP patrols of the fighter squadron will also fly at 10K since there is no separate altitude setting for them?

That's where thing get a bit squirrelly for me, and I admittedly go against what some of the gurus state here (its about the only instance). I would rather believe the escort function is just that and will be assigned to the strike accordingly. IOW, I set my altitudes for the CAP I desire and the escort goes in at 2k above the strike, as some here have stated. Don't know if that's 'forum lore' or not, but that's how I've done it so far. To this point I haven't had coordination problems with strikes, doesn't mean I won't.

So, for instance, my CAP is set to 7-9k low, 11-13k med, 15-20k high. Carrier strikes go in at 10-15k for all bombers and I hope my escort is at 12-17k. From those altitudes my dive bombers will dive bomb, and the torpedo bombers will drop to the correct level for their torp drop. I do the same thing in land attacks too, but just adjust the altitudes for the mission or expected flak opposition.

Don't get me wrong I have had missions (not carrier yet, although some have been fractured) that have gone unescorted, but this I can usually see was probably due to weather. The odd occasion where I can't find a reason I chalk up to 'bad die rolls'. The game is full of them.[:D]
learning curve

Oh, and BTW its know as a 'learning cliff' in these parts.[X(]

Hope that clears some of the 'fog'.[:D] As always the above is just me, YMMV.



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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by Will_L_OLD »

Thank you Alfred. [:)]
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RE: Questions about TF Air Tactical Mechanics

Post by Alfred »

Naval searching has been addressed on numerous occasions in the forum.  The most recent post from me on the subject is found in this thread:
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3966669&mpage=1&key=search&#3967068
 
Newbies should read the entire thread and in particular my post therein which also provides a link to an earlier thread which goes into more details.  As usual readers need to click on every hyper link I provide in my posts to get the full picture.
 
Alfred
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