A new book on Operation Sealion
Moderator: maddog986
A new book on Operation Sealion
- Attachments
-
- 9781472814852.jpg (18.56 KiB) Viewed 565 times
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
Thank you for sharing although I feel slightly pessimistic. But if you like it then do tell. [:)]
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
Hope it's a goodie! [:)]
Please come and join and befriend me at the great Steam portal! There are quite a few Matrix/Slitherine players on Steam! My member page: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197988402427
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
It's hard to break new ground in many WWII topics.
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
warspite1ORIGINAL: Zorch
It's hard to break new ground in many WWII topics.
I agree, although in many cases I don't think new ground needs necessarily to be broken. It would just be helpful in many cases to get a proper - Shattered Sword style - detailed look at an operation.
I have read a couple books now on this subject (plus many articles) and none of them - not one - tackle the operation properly. First and foremost, before even considering the opposition, we need to know:
- What exactly was the plan?
- What, in detail, was the naval equipment (nos. type) that the Germans were planning to use? From which ports would they sail?
- Detail please on the dummy operation - Herbstrasse?
- What, in detail, was the plan to get the troops, tanks and artillery across the channel?
- What escorts were available? Again detailed numbers and capability.
- How long would the crossing take? Assuming they reach the shore, how would they land the troops and how long would that process take?
- What was the plan for follow-up units - timing nos. etc?
- What were the contingency plans in case of things going awry e.g. I think Dover was a target, but what if no port was captured?
Lets hope some of these questions are answered in this book and not just another lazy re-hash of what has gone before.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: Zorch
It's hard to break new ground in many WWII topics.
I agree, although in many cases I don't think new ground needs necessarily to be broken. It would just be helpful in many cases to get a proper - Shattered Sword style - detailed look at an operation.
I have read a couple books now on this subject (plus many articles) and none of them - not one - tackle the operation properly. First and foremost, before even considering the opposition, we need to know:
- What exactly was the plan?
- What, in detail, was the naval equipment (nos. type) that the Germans were planning to use? From which ports would they sail?
- Detail please on the dummy operation - Herbstrasse?
- What, in detail, was the plan to get the troops, tanks and artillery across the channel?
- What escorts were available? Again detailed numbers and capability.
- How long would the crossing take? Assuming they reach the shore, how would they land the troops and how long would that process take?
- What was the plan for follow-up units - timing nos. etc?
- What were the contingency plans in case of things going awry e.g. I think Dover was a target, but what if no port was captured?
Lets hope some of these questions are answered in this book and not just another lazy re-hash of what has gone before.
Robert, I wonder if the they (the Germans) had a detailed plan for the invasion (maybe it was all propaganda), if they did you would think we would have learned about it by now...
Please come and join and befriend me at the great Steam portal! There are quite a few Matrix/Slitherine players on Steam! My member page: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197988402427
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
warspite1ORIGINAL: wings7
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: Zorch
It's hard to break new ground in many WWII topics.
I agree, although in many cases I don't think new ground needs necessarily to be broken. It would just be helpful in many cases to get a proper - Shattered Sword style - detailed look at an operation.
I have read a couple books now on this subject (plus many articles) and none of them - not one - tackle the operation properly. First and foremost, before even considering the opposition, we need to know:
- What exactly was the plan?
- What, in detail, was the naval equipment (nos. type) that the Germans were planning to use? From which ports would they sail?
- Detail please on the dummy operation - Herbstrasse?
- What, in detail, was the plan to get the troops, tanks and artillery across the channel?
- What escorts were available? Again detailed numbers and capability.
- How long would the crossing take? Assuming they reach the shore, how would they land the troops and how long would that process take?
- What was the plan for follow-up units - timing nos. etc?
- What were the contingency plans in case of things going awry e.g. I think Dover was a target, but what if no port was captured?
Lets hope some of these questions are answered in this book and not just another lazy re-hash of what has gone before.
Robert, I wonder if the they (the Germans) had a detailed plan for the invasion (maybe it was all propaganda), if they did you would think we would have learned about it by now...
Oh yes there was a plan... apparently.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
- EwaldvonKleist
- Posts: 2365
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:58 pm
- Location: Berlin, Germany
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
ORIGINAL: Zorch
It's hard to break new ground in many WWII topics.
Not true. Just some suggestions for not yet well researched topics:
-logistics on the eastern front. With detailed statistics (trains per day, trucks available per day/week, breakdown rates, efficiency etc.) for both germans and soviets
-many smaller battles on the eastern front
-axis minor allies history&battles
-war economy (like an integrated economical model of the countries involved, with flow diagrams, transportation infrastructure, manpower model)
-detailed, high information density maps with well researched information regarding unit positions, terrain, logistical aspects etc.
There are still many things to explore. The problem is that many authors do not speak russian/german/romanian/italian. And they prefer to write novels where they use "the enemy resisted to the last man" instead of hard facts like starting OOB 13 894 men ready, 230 wounded-->11 234 ready, 2112 wounded. Looking for real facts from first hand sources takes a lot more time than writing half novels half non fiction books.
Of course, not always the author is to blame, because proper research needs funding.
The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players
WitE2&RtW3 tester
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players
WitE2&RtW3 tester
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
ORIGINAL: Zorch
It's hard to break new ground in many WWII topics.
Not true. Just some suggestions for not yet well researched topics:
-logistics on the eastern front. With detailed statistics (trains per day, trucks available per day/week, breakdown rates, efficiency etc.) for both germans and soviets
-many smaller battles on the eastern front
-axis minor allies history&battles
-war economy (like an integrated economical model of the countries involved, with flow diagrams, transportation infrastructure, manpower model)
-detailed, high information density maps with well researched information regarding unit positions, terrain, logistical aspects etc.
There are still many things to explore. The problem is that many authors do not speak russian/german/romanian/italian. And they prefer to write novels where they use "the enemy resisted to the last man" instead of hard facts like starting OOB 13 894 men ready, 230 wounded-->11 234 ready, 2112 wounded. Looking for real facts from first hand sources takes a lot more time than writing half novels half non fiction books.
Of course, not always the author is to blame, because proper research needs funding.
Niels, I've read alot of what you posted here on the boards and with your knowledge and passion, you would seem to be a perfect fit for these research projects. [:)]
Please come and join and befriend me at the great Steam portal! There are quite a few Matrix/Slitherine players on Steam! My member page: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197988402427
- Chickenboy
- Posts: 24520
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
- Location: San Antonio, TX
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: Zorch
It's hard to break new ground in many WWII topics.
I agree, although in many cases I don't think new ground needs necessarily to be broken. It would just be helpful in many cases to get a proper - Shattered Sword style - detailed look at an operation.
I have read a couple books now on this subject (plus many articles) and none of them - not one - tackle the operation properly. First and foremost, before even considering the opposition, we need to know:
- What exactly was the plan?
- What, in detail, was the naval equipment (nos. type) that the Germans were planning to use? From which ports would they sail?
- Detail please on the dummy operation - Herbstrasse?
- What, in detail, was the plan to get the troops, tanks and artillery across the channel?
- What escorts were available? Again detailed numbers and capability.
- How long would the crossing take? Assuming they reach the shore, how would they land the troops and how long would that process take?
- What was the plan for follow-up units - timing nos. etc?
- What were the contingency plans in case of things going awry e.g. I think Dover was a target, but what if no port was captured?
Lets hope some of these questions are answered in this book and not just another lazy re-hash of what has gone before.
Could it be possible that your demand for such profound detail may not now nor ever have existed? The operation was a hurriedly-constructed affair kind of cobbled together without a great deal of buildup, wasn't it? It wasn't like the thoroughly-planned and meticulously implemented days of Barbarossa in scope, scale or preparation.
My opinion is that they (the Germans) really didn't know how they would execute such a plan 'on the fly' and cobbled together something that sounded remotely plausible to the Wehrmacht high command. Plausibility and detailed minutiae are, of course, worlds apart.
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
warspite1ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: Zorch
It's hard to break new ground in many WWII topics.
I agree, although in many cases I don't think new ground needs necessarily to be broken. It would just be helpful in many cases to get a proper - Shattered Sword style - detailed look at an operation.
I have read a couple books now on this subject (plus many articles) and none of them - not one - tackle the operation properly. First and foremost, before even considering the opposition, we need to know:
- What exactly was the plan?
- What, in detail, was the naval equipment (nos. type) that the Germans were planning to use? From which ports would they sail?
- Detail please on the dummy operation - Herbstrasse?
- What, in detail, was the plan to get the troops, tanks and artillery across the channel?
- What escorts were available? Again detailed numbers and capability.
- How long would the crossing take? Assuming they reach the shore, how would they land the troops and how long would that process take?
- What was the plan for follow-up units - timing nos. etc?
- What were the contingency plans in case of things going awry e.g. I think Dover was a target, but what if no port was captured?
Lets hope some of these questions are answered in this book and not just another lazy re-hash of what has gone before.
Could it be possible that your demand for such profound detail may not now nor ever have existed? The operation was a hurriedly-constructed affair kind of cobbled together without a great deal of buildup, wasn't it? It wasn't like the thoroughly-planned and meticulously implemented days of Barbarossa in scope, scale or preparation.
My opinion is that they (the Germans) really didn't know how they would execute such a plan 'on the fly' and cobbled together something that sounded remotely plausible to the Wehrmacht high command. Plausibility and detailed minutiae are, of course, worlds apart.
Could be. You will recall from the thread on this subject in the WITP-AE forum that some people state there was a plan.
Details of what the plan contained was not forthcoming. Therefore I have no idea about its contents, but you would like to think that people who say the operation was feasible would have actually seen a detailed plan (and thus be able to form an opinion).
As you know I have my doubts, but hopefully this new book will help answer that question. What we do know is that whatever plan was drawn up was cobbled together in a ridiculously short space of time, was not believed in by the head of the navy and air force, and had little to no time for rehearsing.
It would be nice to see what they came up with though - whatever form it took.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
- Chickenboy
- Posts: 24520
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
- Location: San Antonio, TX
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
ORIGINAL: warspite1
What we do know is that whatever plan was drawn up was cobbled together in a ridiculously short space of time, was not believed in by the head of the navy and air force, and had little to no time for rehearsing.
Exactly my point. The slipshod and hurried nature of this Operational planning is unlikely to unearth detailed information you seek:
1. Prove first that it everexisted, then whether it existed after the war ended. Then a debate about whether the author included sufficient details to make a book on the title worthwhile.
I argue that much of your hue and cry for documented specifics may not have ever existed. I contend that the Germans were going to (uncharacteristically) try to cobble this together by hook or by crook in the last few minutes of the operation. Its cancellation negated the need for what would have been their spontaneous on-the-fly approach.
2. Much of the Third Reich's documents and records were destroyed in the war. Why should some of the operational planning information you seek here be any different? If troves of this material existed, why haven't any of the (dozens?) of other works on this abortive plan already reviewed this?
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
warspite1ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: warspite1
What we do know is that whatever plan was drawn up was cobbled together in a ridiculously short space of time, was not believed in by the head of the navy and air force, and had little to no time for rehearsing.
Exactly my point. The slipshod and hurried nature of this Operational planning is unlikely to unearth detailed information you seek:
1. Prove first that it everexisted, then whether it existed after the war ended. Then a debate about whether the author included sufficient details to make a book on the title worthwhile.
I argue that much of your hue and cry for documented specifics may not have ever existed. I contend that the Germans were going to (uncharacteristically) try to cobble this together by hook or by crook in the last few minutes of the operation. Its cancellation negated the need for what would have been their spontaneous on-the-fly approach.
2. Much of the Third Reich's documents and records were destroyed in the war. Why should some of the operational planning information you seek here be any different? If troves of this material existed, why haven't any of the (dozens?) of other works on this abortive plan already reviewed this?
Apart from being a rubbish pop band I am not sure where 'hue and cry' comes from.
1. I do not believe that such a 'plan' existed either - at least not in the normally accepted sense of the term - but there are those that say there is one.
2. There are those who say that Operation Sealion was feasible. Some of those say this having looked at the 'plans'. Fine. I would simply like to know what they have looked at. I am advised that there was a German book (not translated) by Peter Schenk, Landung in England, that details the German vessels that were to be used - what else it details I don't know.
3. In the books and articles I have read I have never seen those 'plans', nor have I even seen any detailed explanation of how the operation would have been carried out and by what - apart from the usual high level stuff that is repeated ad nauseum about barges, Luftwaffe air superiority miraculously achieved (that they didn't), hundreds of U-boats (that they didn't have) etc.
4. What I want therefore - and will have absolutely no interest in buying this book if it is not included - is some missing details. Do they exist (in whatever form)? If so please could a historian tell us what they were.
5. If not then what exactly is this book going to offer? Nothing - because it will just be a re-hash of what's gone before - and what has gone before leads to only one conclusion.
So no hue and cry - just a hope that someone i.e. Mr Forcyck, is going to have actually done some work for his money. If he has then I will buy it. If not and it's just more high level clap trap then... been there...seen it.... done it.... bored.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
- Chickenboy
- Posts: 24520
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
- Location: San Antonio, TX
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
Too bad the primary source you cite is only available in German.
From Amazon's reader reviews (translated by Google Translate from original German review) on Landung in England:
Operation Sea Lion, the planned German invasion of England in 1940, is one of the most concerned about military operations, the written never happened. Since the 1950s there have been many books that what might have occurred the German efforts to invasion and what-if-type books that have examined had discussed actually trying deduct Sealion. A famous war game on Sea Lion at Sandhurst in 1974 carried out, also provided much fodder for more books. But virtually all the books that Lion will discuss written by the British perspective and surprisingly little detail on the German side. Peter Schenk landing in England is the best book on the German plans for Sea Lion and the ships participating in the program. The book is very detailed, but not about the kind of narrative flow, which makes for interesting reading; it is rather a technical history and not other current events of September 1940 in any depth to discuss. Still, if you want to understand about Sea Lion, this book provides a critical piece.
The book consists of two main sections: the invasion fleet and the invasion plan. In the first section the author subsections participated on every ship in Sea Lion, of large shipments to barges and pontoons. As the author describes in detail, the Germans put a massive effort into preparing an invasion armada - it was not a Potemkin village. There is a wealth of technical data herein, including photos and diagrams of almost every ship discussed. Amphibious tanks, gunboats, hospital ships, assault boats - it's all here. A key takeaway I here that I could not be seen elsewhere, that the Germans had great difficulty perfecting the landing ramps to their amphibious vehicles and had to go through many iterations before it correctly. The reader can also be modified with a good amount of information about how different landing craft were, including some alternative concepts with 1940-41 experimented presented the Germans. The ships and ferries were also far more seaworthy than many British accounts. The author does also mention later German efforts to refine amphibious vehicles in 1941-1943. As the author notes, Sea Lion was the first really large amphibious operation ever attempted and the Germans were literally the standard in many areas that use the Allies later in 1944 itself.
The section on planning is very detailed and provides information on exactly what the navy, air force and army would be done in Lion. Some of the information is quite surprising. A final short section British resistance, but the book is really about the Germans. Overall, this is a very useful technical history, not intended for a general readership, but worth it interested in learning more about the early development of amphibious techniques in World War II. For the skilled reader
From Amazon's reader reviews (translated by Google Translate from original German review) on Landung in England:
Operation Sea Lion, the planned German invasion of England in 1940, is one of the most concerned about military operations, the written never happened. Since the 1950s there have been many books that what might have occurred the German efforts to invasion and what-if-type books that have examined had discussed actually trying deduct Sealion. A famous war game on Sea Lion at Sandhurst in 1974 carried out, also provided much fodder for more books. But virtually all the books that Lion will discuss written by the British perspective and surprisingly little detail on the German side. Peter Schenk landing in England is the best book on the German plans for Sea Lion and the ships participating in the program. The book is very detailed, but not about the kind of narrative flow, which makes for interesting reading; it is rather a technical history and not other current events of September 1940 in any depth to discuss. Still, if you want to understand about Sea Lion, this book provides a critical piece.
The book consists of two main sections: the invasion fleet and the invasion plan. In the first section the author subsections participated on every ship in Sea Lion, of large shipments to barges and pontoons. As the author describes in detail, the Germans put a massive effort into preparing an invasion armada - it was not a Potemkin village. There is a wealth of technical data herein, including photos and diagrams of almost every ship discussed. Amphibious tanks, gunboats, hospital ships, assault boats - it's all here. A key takeaway I here that I could not be seen elsewhere, that the Germans had great difficulty perfecting the landing ramps to their amphibious vehicles and had to go through many iterations before it correctly. The reader can also be modified with a good amount of information about how different landing craft were, including some alternative concepts with 1940-41 experimented presented the Germans. The ships and ferries were also far more seaworthy than many British accounts. The author does also mention later German efforts to refine amphibious vehicles in 1941-1943. As the author notes, Sea Lion was the first really large amphibious operation ever attempted and the Germans were literally the standard in many areas that use the Allies later in 1944 itself.
The section on planning is very detailed and provides information on exactly what the navy, air force and army would be done in Lion. Some of the information is quite surprising. A final short section British resistance, but the book is really about the Germans. Overall, this is a very useful technical history, not intended for a general readership, but worth it interested in learning more about the early development of amphibious techniques in World War II. For the skilled reader
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
warspite1ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Too bad the primary source you cite is only available in German.
From Amazon's reader reviews (translated by Google Translate from original German review) on Landung in England:
Operation Sea Lion, the planned German invasion of England in 1940, is one of the most concerned about military operations, the written never happened. Since the 1950s there have been many books that what might have occurred the German efforts to invasion and what-if-type books that have examined had discussed actually trying deduct Sealion. A famous war game on Sea Lion at Sandhurst in 1974 carried out, also provided much fodder for more books. But virtually all the books that Lion will discuss written by the British perspective and surprisingly little detail on the German side. Peter Schenk landing in England is the best book on the German plans for Sea Lion and the ships participating in the program. The book is very detailed, but not about the kind of narrative flow, which makes for interesting reading; it is rather a technical history and not other current events of September 1940 in any depth to discuss. Still, if you want to understand about Sea Lion, this book provides a critical piece.
The book consists of two main sections: the invasion fleet and the invasion plan. In the first section the author subsections participated on every ship in Sea Lion, of large shipments to barges and pontoons. As the author describes in detail, the Germans put a massive effort into preparing an invasion armada - it was not a Potemkin village. There is a wealth of technical data herein, including photos and diagrams of almost every ship discussed. Amphibious tanks, gunboats, hospital ships, assault boats - it's all here. A key takeaway I here that I could not be seen elsewhere, that the Germans had great difficulty perfecting the landing ramps to their amphibious vehicles and had to go through many iterations before it correctly. The reader can also be modified with a good amount of information about how different landing craft were, including some alternative concepts with 1940-41 experimented presented the Germans. The ships and ferries were also far more seaworthy than many British accounts. The author does also mention later German efforts to refine amphibious vehicles in 1941-1943. As the author notes, Sea Lion was the first really large amphibious operation ever attempted and the Germans were literally the standard in many areas that use the Allies later in 1944 itself.
The section on planning is very detailed and provides information on exactly what the navy, air force and army would be done in Lion. Some of the information is quite surprising. A final short section British resistance, but the book is really about the Germans. Overall, this is a very useful technical history, not intended for a general readership, but worth it interested in learning more about the early development of amphibious techniques in World War II. For the skilled reader
Too bad and incredibly frustrating. This is why I hope Mr Forcyck has attempted something new and actually reference this sort of source.....
Hope springs eternal Baldrick [;)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
Schenk's book, published 1987, currently sells for between 71 (used) and 100 Euros (new). This is too much for me at the moment - already spent enough on books this month.
But I will track the offers and should there be any - in any state - for a reasonable price, I shall have a go for it. Just keep reminding me...
But I will track the offers and should there be any - in any state - for a reasonable price, I shall have a go for it. Just keep reminding me...
"A big butcher's bill is not necessarily evidence of good tactics"
- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.
- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.
- Chickenboy
- Posts: 24520
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
- Location: San Antonio, TX
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
ORIGINAL: Hotschi
Schenk's book, published 1987, currently sells for between 71 (used) and 100 Euros (new). This is too much for me at the moment - already spent enough on books this month.
But I will track the offers and should there be any - in any state - for a reasonable price, I shall have a go for it. Just keep reminding me...
Hotschi-did you buy that book yet?
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
No, I have just posted that I will watch the offers and will buy when the price is reasonable enough - there would be no need for this if this book would be already in my possession, wouldn't it? [:D]
"A big butcher's bill is not necessarily evidence of good tactics"
- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.
- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.
- EwaldvonKleist
- Posts: 2365
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:58 pm
- Location: Berlin, Germany
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
Maybe have a look at this book (its in english) of the author who wrote "Landung in England" too:
https://www.amazon.com/Invasion-England ... merReviews
https://www.amazon.com/Invasion-England ... merReviews
The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players
WitE2&RtW3 tester
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players
WitE2&RtW3 tester
- Chickenboy
- Posts: 24520
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
- Location: San Antonio, TX
RE: A new book on Operation Sealion
ORIGINAL: Hotschi
No, I have just posted that I will watch the offers and will buy when the price is reasonable enough - there would be no need for this if this book would be already in my possession, wouldn't it? [:D]
Well, to be fair, you *did* ask us to remind you from time to time (post #16), right?
So...
Did you get it yet?
[:D]