Japan Blank Slate

[Anthropoid]

I've reached a conclusion about why I always found the Japanese to be overwhelming to start (which may also be valid for other players): the starting setup is complex, and unsatisfactory.

It feels a bit like I'm being handicapped by being 'required' to start my match with moves that don't make sense to me and which do not reflect how I would have initiated bringing the U.S. into the war.

Of course, Japanese player gets to have an orders phase prior to the commission of 7 December . . . but that is only partly satisfactory. There are a lot of LCUs I would not have prepared to do what they join the game prepared to do; there are a lot of TF I would not have configured that way; there are a lot of ships in parts of the map where I would not have stewarded them to be on the brink of starting a war with the U.S.; a lot of air groups I would not have stationed where they are when most of the Grand Campaign scenarios ensue.

So, I've been trying my hand at using the "Grand Campaign" scenario to make my own "Blank Slate" sort of scenario, wherein Japan gets no additional assets, but in which the starting positions, missions, etc., for many assets are radically different.

I have found the process of doing this to be rather tricky, and so I'm curious how some of you who have a lot of experience with the editor would go about "recreating" an alternate startup configuration for the Japanese?

Some examples:
1. I find there are an awful lot of amphibious TF heading for north/central Malaya and I figured, why not go ahead and invade Midway right away! This is one thing I managed to finally sucessfully setup: changed two of the existing TF to start out in same hex as KB and with a mission (including checked First Turn Move) to invade Midway. That took several tries to get it setup properly.

2. Instead of invading Philippines in the north what about a heavy-duty minesweeping of Bataan/Manilla (with some air cover) then send in pretty much everything that is going to Luzon straight at Manilla!? So I tried to break off all the Japanese DMS ships from their TF and send them in two waves of Minesweepers at Bataan then Manilla. This so far has not been a success, though I'm sure it is simply a matter of getting the settings correct in the editor.

So what I'm curious about mostly are: what steps would make the most sense to "redo" the Japanese opening setup? Delete a lot of TF and then create new ones?

-=-=-
Related to this question, but an even bigger 2nd question: Would it be possible to create a 1 Dec 1941 scenario? Say one in which: most of the Japanese units which were not already engaged in China, etc. were essentially in their starting HQs / ports and from which a player could set up their own configuration for the de facto declaration of war against the U.S. on 7 Dec 1941?

Would it be possible to: a. place Japanese assets in the spots where they were historically on 1 December (or possibly some other earlier date, such as the date that KB setout, I cannot recall what that date was . . .); b. leave allied assets where they were on 7 Dec, and "lock" them in place; c. allow the Japanese player to prepare for 7th Dec, constrained in a realistic manner, and thus perhaps invigorate interest in playing the Japanese side by allowing players greater latitude in determining Japans opening moves?

Even if such a scenario were eschewed for PBEM, might it be fun for playing the allied computer-opponent? I know it would be for me.

[Big B]

Hello,

Well, you asked for a mouthful - but there is a simple answer...
YES

The game will accommodate any start date in 1941....I just tested it after reading your post (and thinking back on earlier experiments I had done).
I just played 2 complete game turns 01JAN41, 02JAN41...and left at the start of 03JAN41... so YES you can do Dec 1st 1941 start.


Here's the trick....

You have to go through the database with the Editor and:
A) change the Scenario Start Date (in the Scenario Tab)
B) the tough part - go through EVERY single unit...change the DELAY DATE from Dec 6th 1941... To 0 (that is ZERO...the numeral 0)


Do that - and everything will work FINE....but it's a lot of work - if you are up to it...

Then you have COMPLETE freedom of action to change any TF Mission etc....


Hope that helps,
B
[:)]

EDIT:
The land forces seem to be all be on map (not 100% sure), but definitely reset ALL appropriate SHIPS and SQUADRONS... also check Device dates and Aircraft dates.
Also - depending on how early in 1941 you wish to start, if you want to look historically accurate some units will be in other locations, or not arrived yet.
For example; I believe in November 1941 - the US 4th Marines will still be in Shanghai (not the PI) ... you get the picture.
One more thing to keep in mind: IF you are going for HISTORICAL...do NOT use Dec 7th Surprise ON for a Dec 1st start date - the Allies (at least the US) was on Full Military Alert - WAR WARNING from Nov 29th (as I recall) for about a week...
And as a Final answer (to anyone reading this) You Can-Not start before 1941...that is - No 1940 or earlier Start Date.

[Anthropoid]

Ah thanks Big B! [:D]

Yeah, definitely changing all values for stuff is not a problem. Even easier than hunting down stuff to be honest!

Just from the standpoint of "getting to play Japan how I want against the allied CO (computer opponent)" that will be fantastic and totally doable. It may even prove to be integral to making a scenario that others might enjoy!

So basically: "Delay = 0" means that the AI will not move the unit until the scenario start date?

Of course the other option is: start however much earlier you want in Hot Seat, play the side you want to change around (in my case Japan) then run through turns till you get to 7 Dec and reload that save as a "vs allied computer!" [:D]

[Big B]

Pretty Much - YES
But Just to be clear - DELAY=0 means unit is available (on map and active) AT START...
Probably doesn't change your thinking... but that's how it works [;)]

The Editor is a powerful tool - the limit is YOUR research and imagination [8D]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Ah thanks Big B! [:D]

Yeah, definitely changing all values for stuff is not a problem. Even easier than hunting down stuff to be honest!

Just from the standpoint of "getting to play Japan how I want against the allied CO (computer opponent) that will be fantastic and totally doable. It may even prove to be integral to making a scenario that others might enjoy!

So basically: "Delay = 0" means that the AI will not move the unit until the scenario start date?

Of course the other option is: start however much earlier you want in Hot Seat, play the side you want to change around (in my case Japan) then run through turns till you get to 7 Dec and reload that save as a "vs allied computer!" [:D]

[Anthropoid]

ORIGINAL: Big B

Pretty Much - YES
But Just to be clear - DELAY=0 means unit is available (on map and active) AT START...
Probably doesn't change your thinking... but that's how it works [;)]

The Editor is a powerful tool - the limit is YOUR research and imagination [8D]

So, I wonder if the AI for U.S./European Powers/Australia/NZ behaves as if it is at war with Japan prior to 6 Dec 1941? Will those nations launch attacks against Japan prior to Japan attacking any of them?

If so that poses a slight problem, but not a huge one, and one which it would seem is fairly readily solved: set Japanese units to Delay = 0 (or to 411201 or however much time is desired), set all allied units (except Chinese) units to 411207 . . .

Now that I think about it, something like that really might be an excellent basis for an interesting scenario: put all the existing Japanese assets that begin 'in transit' back in their home locations, remove all preparations (else reduce them an appropriate length of time), and give players a week or however long is appropriate to initiate the war. Of course, it if were designed for PBEM, then not leaving the allied player totally out in the cold would make sense, but the process of deciding exactly how much control the allied player would have (which units are restricted, how many PP, which units have yet to arrive, etc., etc.) would of course be a balancing act that would require input from those with far more expertise in the details of the weeks preceding the onset of war . . .

You are absolutely right that the editor is a powerful tool. It is a bit tricky to get the hang of initially, and of course making optimum use of it even more tricky. When I read that line in the Editor manual I sort of thought to myself "yeah right" . . . but then today I was like "yeah, this really is a POWERFUL tool."

[Big B]

Yep, anything On Map will be Fair Game for combat... [:D]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

ORIGINAL: Big B

Pretty Much - YES
But Just to be clear - DELAY=0 means unit is available (on map and active) AT START...
Probably doesn't change your thinking... but that's how it works [;)]

The Editor is a powerful tool - the limit is YOUR research and imagination [8D]

So, I wonder if the AI for U.S./European Powers/Australia/NZ behaves as if it is at war with Japan prior to 6 Dec 1941? Will those nations launch attacks against Japan prior to Japan attacking any of them?

[Dili]

Big B so you didn't had any issue in Pearl Harbor day? that day some forces are "teleported" and maybe there are some hardcode going on. At least i was always advised to not start any scenario that goes trought Pearl Harbor day except as scenario first day.

[Anthropoid]

It works! [:D]

I checked and Kido Butai departed for Pearl on 25 Nov 1941, so I thought that would be a good date to start from. I did quite a bit of value changing and apart from one error I have yet to pin down (the five mini-subs appear at Pearl on start date, despite the ship being set to avail 411206), and one slight 'wrinkle ('0' [as in the number zero]) actually causes assets to arrive at the END of the first day of the scenario, which is a small and very easy thing to change): I got exactly what I was hoping for.

All allied powers except China have all of their Air Groups, and ships set to become available on 411206 (I left the LCUs with their existing values, most of which were "0"), but without ships and planes, even if they "want" to start the war early, they cannot.

I forget exactly what I did on the Task Forces . . . think I changed the avail date . . . anyway, NO TASK forces (except the aforementioned midget subs . . . I bet MiniMe would love one of those for his birthday . . .). Thanksfully, when a TF that an LCU was assigned to as a passenger/cargo is ont present, the unit seems to just spawn in the port where the TF would have embarked. I'll need to compare total number of ground forces in the actual stock for 6 Dec 1941 to be sure, but . . . it seems that all units which had been in TF came into the game!

All Japanese ships which normally are present 07 Dec 1941 arrive in their home ports either at start or end of first game day (again need to check to be certain).

All device, ship class and plane dates were checked: basically all devices available 25 Nov 1941.

Japanese assets with arrival of 411206 have that set to 411125 instead. Some units had it set to "0" and I changed quite a few to be 411125, but I must have overlooked the capital ships. When I first loaded only two CV/CVL in Japan's navy (the CVL) but the rest (and several other ships) arrived at the end of the first turn on 25 Nov 1941.

So basically: as long as the Japanese player doesn't attack anyone, it is has the semblance of "peace" (except China where they have all their asset and can attack Japanese forces at the computer's discretion) and the Japanese player gets ~12 to form up his assets to attack the U.S..

This is all of course just a first glance. To know if it works it will need to be played through to at least 7 Dec 1941.

[Anthropoid]

So I'm 'testing' this little scenario a bit.

Main objective: without setting up ANY TF or missions, fast forward (in head-to-head mode) to Dec 7, 1941 and insure that the asset pools (air groups, LCUs, pilots, PPs I suppose) all match (or are at least comparable) to what they should be for a scenario with a 7 Dec start.

Two questions:

1. Is there a way to get it to process turns REALLY fast?
A. I selected "Continuous" turns, but if I don't watch it and periodically click [ESC] it tends to slow down.
B. At the end of each turn there are a ton of reports on the lower-left message bar about transfers of economic stuff (oil, supply, resource, etc.) (note: I need to leave production on for Japanese in this initial test [and with everything left in its default state] to determine how imbalancing it is to give the Japanese an extra 12 days of 'economy' prior to the onset of war . . . basically, what do the pools look like on 7 December compared to an actual 7 December start . . .
C. I recall with WitP the thing would just lightning through many days at a time, though perhaps my memory doesn't serve well. In this case, despite it being on "continuous mode" it advances two maybe three days, then it stops again.

2. Is there a way in any of the screens in game (I know tracker can do this but I don't have it installed) to get a sum total for assets? Things like "how many LCUs" "how many ships" "how many air groups" do I have active? That would be the easiest way to compare the scenario on 7 December with those in an actual 7 December start.

[dr.hal]

If playing against another player, shouldn't you give the Allied player some flexibility too???? Differing the set up so to speak? Always mindful of unit availability of course....

[Anthropoid]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal
If playing against another player, shouldn't you give the Allied player some flexibility too???? Differing the set up so to speak? Always mindful of unit availability of course....

Definitely, though arguably much less flexibility than the Japanese. I think I'm still a long way from a clear conception of how it would be setup to provide a fun PBEM scenario, but first priority is to see if it is fun as a scenario for playing Japanese against computer Allies. Another motivation for me is to use it as a way to get a more clear mental picture of the Japanese OOB and 'optimum strategic postures.'

So far, I've spent probably two hours fiddling with the Japanese assets (all in ports! and disembarked whoo hoo!) and made about 1% progress toward clicking "Finish Orders."

[Skyros]

I would not train LCUs or pilots during this time,to keep the playing field even. You will have to go through your forces to see what has been set to training. If allied are not appearing on map, I don't think it will be an issue for them.

What about production? That may be an issue.

[dr.hal]

When I've played the 'real' game against others and the AI as Japan, I've often disembarked troops from slow transports (speed 2) letting the remaining 'fast' transports (usually speed 3) move on out. I then reload the troops onto fast transports and often catch up to the rest of the group depending upon their destination. I don't know enough about the historical set up on 7 December, but the Japanese tendency to mix slow and fast transports was astonishingly short sighted!!!! And in a number of cases stuck in VERY slow escorts to boot!

[DOCUP]

Interesting idea. I think someone had came up with a similar idea a few years ago.

You could do a lot with a blank slate. Have a starting time of some time in 1941. The two opponents can make some changes (a set number for allies and axis), to staring positions and maybe some research and development changes for both sides. Have someone maybe a 3rd party input the changes into the editor. I agree that the Japanese should be aloud more changes and freedoms.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Big B

Hello,

Well, you asked for a mouthful - but there is a simple answer...
YES

The game will accommodate any start date in 1941....I just tested it after reading your post (and thinking back on earlier experiments I had done).
I just played 2 complete game turns 01JAN41, 02JAN41...and left at the start of 03JAN41... so YES you can do Dec 1st 1941 start.


Here's the trick....

You have to go through the database with the Editor and:
A) change the Scenario Start Date (in the Scenario Tab)
B) the tough part - go through EVERY single unit...change the DELAY DATE from Dec 6th 1941... To 0 (that is ZERO...the numeral 0)


Do that - and everything will work FINE....but it's a lot of work - if you are up to it...

Then you have COMPLETE freedom of action to change any TF Mission etc....


Hope that helps,
B
[:)]

EDIT:
The land forces seem to be all be on map (not 100% sure), but definitely reset ALL appropriate SHIPS and SQUADRONS... also check Device dates and Aircraft dates.
Also - depending on how early in 1941 you wish to start, if you want to look historically accurate some units will be in other locations, or not arrived yet.
For example; I believe in November 1941 - the US 4th Marines will still be in Shanghai (not the PI) ... you get the picture.
One more thing to keep in mind: IF you are going for HISTORICAL...do NOT use Dec 7th Surprise ON for a Dec 1st start date - the Allies (at least the US) was on Full Military Alert - WAR WARNING from Nov 29th (as I recall) for about a week...
And as a Final answer (to anyone reading this) You Can-Not start before 1941...that is - No 1940 or earlier Start Date.

What is EXE dependent though? Does the amphib bonus start at the scenario start, or does it click on at Dec. 7? (Not going to play any Japanese player with fifteen months of bonus!!) Do the Magic TFs only work on the Dec. 7 turn? Can Japan start aircraft R&D in January 1941 and get jets in 1944?

[dr.hal]

I would have thought a good balance is that the MILITARY action starts on 7 December, the days prior are for maneuvering so to speak. If the start date of the "game" is pushed back almost a full year, and military action is to start a full year earlier, then you are asking for a whole new game! I thought the discussion was really to allow Japan (and to a limited extent the Allies) a chance to re-stack the deck so to speak. To get in differing start positions, but have the start at on or about the same time. Thus the amphib bonus could remain the same... I would expect R and D the same unless you are playing RA. But obviously this would be between the two contestants or the one against the AI.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I would have thought a good balance is that the MILITARY action starts on 7 December, the days prior are for maneuvering so to speak. If the start date of the "game" is pushed back almost a full year, and military action is to start a full year earlier, then you are asking for a whole new game! I thought the discussion was really to allow Japan (and to a limited extent the Allies) a chance to re-stack the deck so to speak. To get in differing start positions, but have the start at on or about the same time. Thus the amphib bonus could remain the same... I would expect R and D the same unless you are playing RA. But obviously this would be between the two contestants or the one against the AI.

I'm just not sure how you do this under the current engine.

Does Japan just turn off R&D? OK. Can it turn off supply generation? No. Japan is going to be way over-supplied on 12/7 under this engine since LI can't be turned off and there's no civilian consumption modeled and no combat for a year. Can you turn off LCUs getting experience up to national averages? No. Can you stop field forts from being dug? No. Pause all Japanese ship construction? Yes, but do you stop all shipyard point accumulation? And so on.

Some can be turned off, some can't. But it sounds like what the plan is here is to mostly just re-jigger LCU starting locations. Other than that if you leave the engine mechanics on you get uber-trained air groups, optimized leaders, huge PP pools, trained LCUs, big device pools for the Allies, big aircraft pools for Japan . . .

. . . and you have to play through a year of REALLY boring turns.

The game was designed to start on 12/7/41. You can make it jump through a different hoop perhaps, but would you want to?

[Anthropoid]

I think 25 Nov 1941 is about as far back as I'd like. It only takes a couple days for most TF to load. I noticed that: for the Japanese starting TF, when they get disembarked into their "home ports" there are far too many tons of ships to be able to reload all of them in one go.

If folks want, I can upload the scenario as it stands now, but it is not suitable for PBEM by a long shot yet.

Even so, I'm REALLY enjoying the chance to work through a "turn one" as Japanese player without any TF packages confusing things.

For an actual PBEM mod scenario, I think 25 Nov 1941 is too early, and I also think that moving ships and LCUs to where they "really were" (or really could be) so that the Japanese player can get everything loaded up in a week or so.

For now, I'm just doing it for fun, but if someone wanted to take the "blank slate" setup I've configured for the scenario and run with experimenting on settings for PBEM that is something I'd be very happy about, and willing to help out with to some extent.

[dr.hal]

I agree, going back to far destroys too many norms. Bullwinkle is right, too many things to adjust to make it work within the bounds of the developers. However a week or two would "benefit" both sides in terms of industry and training... I believe this is somewhat in line with developer thought in that currently one can redirect the KB, etc. so that Pearl can be avoided. Why not go one step further and rethink the wider launch scenario.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I agree, going back to far destroys too many norms. Bullwinkle is right, too many things to adjust to make it work within the bounds of the developers. However a week or two would "benefit" both sides in terms of industry and training... I believe this is somewhat in line with developer thought in that currently one can redirect the KB, etc. so that Pearl can be avoided. Why not go one step further and rethink the wider launch scenario.

In an AI situation I'm not sure any scripts would fire until 12/7. That might not matter to a human Japan player.

In a PBEM, a roll-back benefits Japan a lot more if the Allies have to still "play stupid" until 12/7. Yeah, the Allies can train a few pilots for two weeks. But depending on what they're allowed to move (a long list of HRs) Japan gets to hyper-refine the 12/7 surprise while the Allied player just takes it. In the long, long run it probably doesn't matter, if the Japan player doesn't quit once the fun is over. But a lot of these what-if mods seek to make Japan something it wasn't. The game's design philosophy AND victory conditions (so many players reject them and then wonder why the game has less flavor) seeks to make a "fair" game inside the parameters of what Japan was and could have done.

Now if you want to play from Nov 25 and give the Allies knowledge the PH attack is coming, and give him free rein over all of his assets, that's different. But I doubt Japan players want to attack PH or the PI with a full CAP aloft and all surface combatants in TFs and undocked.