Ideas on countering reserves?

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Disgruntled Veteran
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Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by Disgruntled Veteran »

First opponent I've came across (thanks Bozo) that gets reserve activations on 4/5 battles under 5:1 appx. Makes the game extremely frustrating to plan. He's pulled off some terrible upsets in 41 that just shouldn't be IMO. I know the Germans got stonewalled for much of mid summer in 41, but wishing there was a better mechanic to simulate this. Seems my options are either always attack with overwhelming force, use tons of hasty soak off attacks to remove reserves or face
many random upsets. I know the idea is to keep momentum going and prevent a front where reserves are possible, but Bozo ran the first 10 turns on most fronts. So, its a game, my 7th, just wondering if there was any tactics to help work around the system.
Reserves are not implemented well imo...for either side. Going reserve should have some setbacks other than not refitting. Any suggestions? Suck it up and quit griping maybe? Lol..
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by Disgruntled Veteran »

Oh, just some suggestions for future WITE productions. How about either:

-Since reserves on defense are supposed to be counter ATTACKING, why not make infantry have an additional 6mp in addition to the mp required to join the battle? This would be more accurate right? The way it is now the reserves get to travel 4 hexes, fight a counterattack, smoke a cig or two, then march back to their comfy beds and forts and stay dug in for the next turn. Make it soak up their mp's AND keep those units on the front. Make the defender pay a price for reserves.


-Or remove the odds calculator. Let reserves join regardless of odds. That way you could smash reserves with heavy attacks and make them pay for the gamble. As it is now the Soviets break out their field calculators and decide in the heat of battle whether to implement more troops.

Just some ideas...
swkuh
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by swkuh »

Would be interested to hear developers' thoughts on "reserves" implementation. Your point well taken.
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Michael T
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by Michael T »

IMO the whole reserves part of the game is screwed up. Mobile reserves should be the backbone of the reserves system but in 1941 it's all about Soviet ID as reserves. And it's a spam. Basically you can put everything in reserve. Even front line units. There should have been a sensible limit per Army (one or two ID) and reserve support available within individual armies only (exception Tank/Mot). At least for 1941 as the Soviets were terrible at reacting to German moves.

You are not alone DV, I hate the reserve system as well. The Soviet need not apply any thought at all. Just put the entire Soviet army in to Reserve.
Stelteck
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by Stelteck »

Maybe units on reserve shall have penalty to digging and building fortification.

A unit cannot be very efficient at building if they are on high alert near their vehicule and ready to counter attack at any time.

Brakes are for cowards !!
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Michael T
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by Michael T »

Exactly right. Units in reserve mode definitely should not dig.
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morvael
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by morvael »

Reserve units next to enemy unit will not join combat. Also, reserves with morale below 55 can rout from a failed battle. If you want a unit to remain in hex for ZOC purposes and it's a low grade unit, I wouldn't put it on reserve. Another drawback is that unit in reserve is not in refit mode.
No idea
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by No idea »

ORIGINAL: Michael T

IMO the whole reserves part of the game is screwed up. Mobile reserves should be the backbone of the reserves system but in 1941 it's all about Soviet ID as reserves. And it's a spam. Basically you can put everything in reserve. Even front line units. There should have been a sensible limit per Army (one or two ID) and reserve support available within individual armies only (exception Tank/Mot). At least for 1941 as the Soviets were terrible at reacting to German moves.

You are not alone DV, I hate the reserve system as well. The Soviet need not apply any thought at all. Just put the entire Soviet army in to Reserve.


I agree. The urremt reserves system is just a clickfest of putting everything and everybody in reserve mode (well, not everybody, but 90%).
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morvael
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by morvael »

You can use CR to do it with a few click and key presses.
charlie0311
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by charlie0311 »

Morveal is so right. All part of playing the "piano".

Disgruntled, Bozo just gets lucky, use reserve with your attack force and bomb everything.

Let's keep Stalin and Hitler out of it.
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Michael T
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by Michael T »

The process is, put the entire army in to reserve mode (easy in the CR screen). Then decide on who goes in to refit (not that many units). Then go back in to CR screen and disable reserve mode for low morale units. Done.

Really, can we at least make Reserves no dig. At least that would require some thought from the Soviet then about who becomes reserve.
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by Disgruntled Veteran »

Or a big thing would be to make defensive reserves use a deliberate attack mp cost. I'm pretty sure they don't now. Offensive reserves cost full mp to engage so why not defensive? This would pull any activated unit to the front and leave them much more likely to rout. Even if you lost the first battle, the next battle might rout the previous reserve division cause it burned its mp. At the very least it would pull it out of a digging hex. Just making the unit pay full mp would be nice.

As far as countering it. Its not hard to judge when reserves will activate..the problem is you either have to get jammed up by risking a battle with "only" 2 to 1 odds or use 4-5 to 1 odds, thus avoiding reserve calculation, and wasting excessive force. Its a very terrible implementation. I'm bitching because I've never seen anyone use it with such effect as Bozo.It literally saps half my attack power every turn having to factor in reserves. My last turn was almost comical as I was betting myself I could get 100% reserve activation in every single battle that turn. Didn't quite get that bad...but you get my point.
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Michael T
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by Michael T »

In my game with Kamil, a few years ago now. We agreed to some HR on Reserves. We limited the number per HQ by type.
rmonical
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by rmonical »

The are some reasonable game mechanics tweaks I would like to see.
IMHO, reserve activation should be subject to interdiction attack.
There is insufficient movement penalty for reserve activation defensive . I think the defending reserve unit should actually expend movement points in combat. I also do not think it expend movement points returning to the source hex. I saw one panzer division activate 5 hexes north, 5 hexes south and two hexes away in the same turn. These were all deliberate attacks. I think the prep points concept in WITE2 addresses this behavior, but I still think defensive activation is not expensive enough.
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morvael
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by morvael »

Disabling digging for reserve units is an easy to implement solution. Would it be enough? What about units on refit?
with "only" 2 to 1 odds or use 4-5 to 1 odds
That's how reserves are supposed to work, they don't trigger for battles when there is no hope turning the tide.
Stelteck
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by Stelteck »

Completely disabling digging for units in reserve may be a little too harsh.

A balance solution could be to give units in reserve mode the same penalty to dig as the units close to enemy units. If i remember well, non engineer element adjacent to ennemy units have a built speed divided by 3 (although i was not able to find where i read it in the manual, i may be wrong).

For refit, i see nothing wrong with the current state.
Brakes are for cowards !!
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Michael T
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by Michael T »

I would vote for no dig for reserves.
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by Disgruntled Veteran »

ORIGINAL: morvael

Disabling digging for reserve units is an easy to implement solution. Would it be enough? What about units on refit?
with "only" 2 to 1 odds or use 4-5 to 1 odds
That's how reserves are supposed to work, they don't trigger for battles when there is no hope turning the tide.

I understand as it spells it out in the manual. Just pointing out then when the bulk of the Soviet front can go into reserve it makes every battle much more risky. I don't know the perfect balance tbh. I just think at a minimum the defending reserve should expend mp's to attack just like offensive reserves do. I don't know how hard this is to implement as that is done during your offturn, but no digging would be a decent change that should give the Soviet a tactical trade off.
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morvael
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by morvael »

It's easy to implement. Doubling MP cost of reserves to account for moving back into original position is also possible.
charlie0311
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RE: Ideas on countering reserves?

Post by charlie0311 »

Pls wait on this, or make very slight change ( no dig but only if activate ). Game is in pretty delicate balance as it is.

The system of reserve activations adds fun, let's see if the players can devise a better offensive method.

BTW my russkies did a "number" on Bozo gerries in blizzard, mild, no bonus, reserve activations inc. But I'm just lucky.

Bozo likely has a fire brigade army ( leadership, coc, etc), so not the whole front that's the problem.

How about clear weather and no sov bonus for the axis 41 offensive.
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