Somewhat OT, Newbies and Old Salts

[dr.hal]

Recently Bill closed a thread that had "run its course." It was precipitated by a newbie jumping into the forum at the deep end. I don't mean to resurrect that discussion, but there was one comment by a relative newbie in it that caught my eye and I thought I would expand upon it. The newbie's reply comment was along the lines of thinking on a new poster to the forum as a new 2ed LT or Ensign and the Master Sgts or Chiefs response to that new officer. Here is a real life example, with me at the heart of it.

I WAS that brand new Ensign "butter bar" just reporting aboard my first ship as the new "gunner" officer. The first day I was aboard my chief (FTMC Lyons, I still remember his name) came up to me while on deck and said the following: "Mr. K.....(not sure if we are allowed to use last names here)...my job is to make you look good, don't make my job difficult." I tried very hard to follow his words until I knew enough to do otherwise (which was many years, and I'm still not fully there yet). In many ways the NCOs (old salts) run the boat, officers are just window dressing (until they get the hang of it).

Just a thought!

[geofflambert]

That's pretty much how it is in the Army and Marines, to my knowledge. Sergeant Majors would be a really big deal to me.

If I were a Capt., I'd want a MSGT by my side. If I were a lieutenant I'd want a SSGT. Now majors, I've never understood what they're for.

They take over battalions if a Lt. Col. gets killed I guess.

[Orm]

Now majors, I've never understood what they're for.

They run the staff?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Recently Bill closed a thread that had "run its course." It was precipitated by a newbie jumping into the forum at the deep end. I don't mean to resurrect that discussion, but there was one comment by a relative newbie in it that caught my eye and I thought I would expand upon it. The newbie's reply comment was along the lines of thinking on a new poster to the forum as a new 2ed LT or Ensign and the Master Sgts or Chiefs response to that new officer. Here is a real life example, with me at the heart of it.

I WAS that brand new Ensign "butter bar" just reporting aboard my first ship as the new "gunner" officer. The first day I was aboard my chief (FTMC Lyons, I still remember his name) came up to me while on deck and said the following: "Mr. K.....(not sure if we are allowed to use last names here)...my job is to make you look good, don't make my job difficult." I tried very hard to follow his words until I knew enough to do otherwise (which was many years, and I'm still not fully there yet). In many ways the NCOs (old salts) run the boat, officers are just window dressing (until they get the hang of it).

Just a thought!

Thank you for sharing. [:)]

[mussey]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

That's pretty much how it is in the Army and Marines, to my knowledge. Sergeant Majors would be a really big deal to me.

If I were a Capt., I'd want a MSGT by my side. If I were a lieutenant I'd want a SSGT. Now majors, I've never understood what they're for.

They take over battalions if a Lt. Col. gets killed I guess.

Yes indeed. When my battery commander was promoted to major we never saw him again. Went rogue on us in some S-1 position.

[dr.hal]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Thank you for sharing. [:)]

My pleasure!

[pmelheck1]

When I was stationed at a major U.S. Air Force Base we got in a new pair of peanut butter bars who were assigned to run the bomb dump. Both were salivating that they would have a whole bunch of folks to boss around and let it be known to everyone in the squadron. The logistics commander took both of them to the bomb dump assembled everyone and told both of them in front of everyone "this is the chief of the bomb dump. You are the OIC, when the chief tells you something you say Oh I See. DONT SCREW UP MY BOMB DUMP." Needless to say that changed their toon. I really enjoyed working with that Col. He used to throw out really stupid suggestions at the Group staff meetings to see who had the courage to call his BS for what it was. Usually it was the old chiefs who called him out. The commanders and younger chiefs would just nod and say how great his idea was. When he needed feedback even when he knew he may not like it he knew who would give him honest feedback.

[US87891]

Having been one, it is hard to dismiss the modern characterizations of Majors. Long ago and far away, field grade gave you command of something bigger than a company. Today, there is a deeper chasm separating field and company archetypes and a sharper partition between their missions and function.

Today, it probably is more profitable to think of a Major as a field rank ‘butter bar’. There is so much to learn that does not happen at the company level. This is where the ‘great game’ is at its most vicious because it is selecting for the future. A commander needs to know what is practical when he makes his decisions. Time spent in 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 is invaluable for a commander and allows his to choose his staff judiciously. The weeding out process, while not necessarily sympathetic, is nonetheless effective.

The worst day of your professional life is when you see your name on the list for a Majority. I have had friends who were Captains who organized a wake for themselves when they hit the list. A Captain’s Lament.

Goodbye to my friends and those I love;
I will be resurrected to tower, above;
I know not what is expected of me;
Except that you should address me on bended knee.

Matt

[Korvar]

Thanks everyone for sharing your personal stories!

As the forum 'newbie' who made the original analogy, I find them particularly interesting - that with as much training the US military conducts, how much is still missed and thus is required to 'fly by the seat of [one's] pants'.

I'm not sure about the other academies, but I know the USAF Academy came under flak in the last 10-15 years because although graduates were well-rounded in the sense of a classical education, they had no clue how to even file basic paperwork necessary for the operation of a squadron. There's always unit-specific training anyway, but it seemed off that the 'cream of the crop' as it were would require remedial training to accomplish the day-to-day essentials of their first assignments.

The well-known case study of leadership aboard the USS Santa Fe also highlights the effectiveness of training people for the next grade. Capt. Marquet took one of the worst performing boats in the sub fleet and made it into a veritable 'promotion factory'. Part of that was giving each crew member a lot of latitude in how they performed their job, but as part of that freedom, they were forced to think from the perspective of their immediate superior's position. The system was set up so that by the time a crew member was ready to promote, they had already been performing at least some of the essential duties of the position for some time and it made it easier to make the grade.

[BBfanboy]

"Personnel paperwork" presumably means evaluations - one of the hardest things to do because he assessing officer is judge and jury and either savior or executioner!

I found it amazing that so many people did not have the guts to honestly state a subordinate's shortcomings (usually interpersonal) in writing and the subordinates did not have the guts to accept a realistic assessment and work on the shortcoming. I had many clashes with people who had never been told before that their behavior mattered. I always dreaded performance review time but I was determined not to dodge the responsibility with generic phrases that did not address issues.

[geofflambert]

Here's an interesting case (fictionally): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HbC_OE2zAo

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Here's an interesting case (fictionally): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HbC_OE2zAo

"Mutinous Dog" - now there's a term I could have used in writing evaluations! [:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

"Personnel paperwork" presumably means evaluations - one of the hardest things to do because he assessing officer is judge and jury and either savior or executioner!

I found it amazing that so many people did not have the guts to honestly state a subordinate's shortcomings (usually interpersonal) in writing and the subordinates did not have the guts to accept a realistic assessment and work on the shortcoming. I had many clashes with people who had never been told before that their behavior mattered. I always dreaded performance review time but I was determined not to dodge the responsibility with generic phrases that did not address issues.

True but how many times did you have an evaluation come back as "too severe" or "too truthful"? Half of the evals I wrote resulted in long , drawn out debates with my superiors who "couldn't handle the truth". It never failed that my "worthless dirtbag" would somehow transmut to "above average sailor" just by going up the chain of command. [:(]

[jmalter]

wrt the salts/newbs thing, Kipling had a poem about recruits.

"But day by day they kicks 'im, which 'elps 'im on a bit,
Till 'e finds 'isself one mornin' with a full an' proper kit."

http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/k ... athen.html

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

"Personnel paperwork" presumably means evaluations - one of the hardest things to do because he assessing officer is judge and jury and either savior or executioner!

I found it amazing that so many people did not have the guts to honestly state a subordinate's shortcomings (usually interpersonal) in writing and the subordinates did not have the guts to accept a realistic assessment and work on the shortcoming. I had many clashes with people who had never been told before that their behavior mattered. I always dreaded performance review time but I was determined not to dodge the responsibility with generic phrases that did not address issues.

True but how many times did you have an evaluation come back as "too severe" or "too truthful"? Half of the evals I wrote resulted in long , drawn out debates with my superiors who "couldn't handle the truth". It never failed that my "worthless dirtbag" would somehow transmut to "above average sailor" just by going up the chain of command. [:(]

Should have mentioned that I also pointed to their strong points for balance and to make it clear that the criticisms were not my entire opinion of their performance. The hope was that they would be more willing to hear the bad if they knew it was an isolated problem.

[robinsa]

Personally I think this forum is more like a lost tribe than an army. The hierarchy is whatever we decide it to be at the moment and people come and go as they please. When somebody offend the rest of us we drag them out in to the forest and give them a good beating before we let them sleep in the hut again.

Edit: Oh, and of course, strangers are something we look at with a bit of distrust..

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: robinsa

Personally I think this forum is more like a lost tribe than an army. The hierarchy is whatever we decide it to be at the moment and people come and go as they please. When somebody offend the rest of us we drag them out in to the forest and give them a good beating before we let them sleep in the hut again.

Edit: Oh, and of course, strangers are something we look at with a bit of distrust..

It is what it is, but specific suggestions for improvements are always entertained! [:)]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

That's pretty much how it is in the Army and Marines, to my knowledge. Sergeant Majors would be a really big deal to me.

If I were a Capt., I'd want a MSGT by my side. If I were a lieutenant I'd want a SSGT. Now majors, I've never understood what they're for.

They take over battalions if a Lt. Col. gets killed I guess.

I was considered a "strack troop"...came from a military family...dad was an officer-type....but to this day...I cannot give you the name of any of the 3 Captains in my last permanent party assignment.They were just not part of my world.

"Top" owns the company, and the Bn CSM owns everything in the Bn.

After Vietnam I was assigned to Frankfurt Germany..In that fine city was an Officers Club.(The Terrace Club behind the I.G.Farben Hochhaus(Ambrams Bldg).

Directly in front of that club was a perpetually open parking spot...marked "RESERVED FOR ANY SECOND LIEUTENANT...JUST ANY SECOND LIEUTENANT"

(In 3 years, I personally only saw one person parked there...and that car did not stay there for long.)[:D]

[rsallen64]

I agree with the observation that the top NCOs run the units. That's been my experience as well. I currently work with a retired Command Sergeant Major who, despite being 85 years old next month, still comes to work every day and effectively runs the staff in our office. Some people find it hard to take his criticism sometimes because he can be a little blunt, but to me, he's the best person here. His office has a sign outside that says "War Room" and the inside is still decorated like a military office. And believe me, he makes his voice heard. He's also our chief computer programmer, and has designed and programmed our proprietary case management system (I work in a law office). It's the best system I've ever seen!

[dr.hal]

Honest feedback, let alone evaluations is very difficult in the service, as one wrong feedback to a senior can ruin your career. When I was in we had Zumwalt, I don't know if you youngsters know of him, but he was a "modern" CNO (Chief of Naval Operations) and tried to institute HONEST fitness reports. Up to that point, in terms of "fitreps" 90% of all naval officers were in the "Top 10%" in terms of fitness reports. Zumwalt ordered that to change and to use non-exaggerated numbers. Well some senior officers did, but most didn't and this one misguided step ruined MANY a naval officer's career. Zumwalt never was able to achieve a realistic fitness reporting system... sad....