Amphibuous Invasions

[warnevada]

My friends and I set up a game to simulate the Normandy invasion in ATG. The bottom line is it can't be done. Here are the problems as we see them:

1. Despite each turn being a month, you can't load units, sail to the invasion beach and land the units.

2. When you land units their APs get zeroed out which means they sit on the beach waiting for the defender to clobber them.

3. The only practical way to supply a beachhead is to build a port, but any engineers that are landed get their EPs zeroed out. If the defender attacks their hex then it can take more than one turn for them to regain enough EPs to build the port, if the defender doesn't kill them.

Our suggestions are:

1. Do not arbitrarily zero out APs. Charge 10AP for loading troops, 10AP for each hex sailed, 10AP to unload troops. Troops should have whatever APs are left to either move or attack. If the ships wait until the following turn to land troops, the troops should have 90AP available (100 - 10AP to unload.)

2. Do not zero out engineer EPs. We don't see any rationale for this. Same thing with strategic moves of engineers. It's kind of silly. If you move engineers normally to a given hex they keep their EPs, but if you strategically move them to the same hex they lose them.

[Vic]

Hi,

Designer here.

1. It all depends on scale in turn-length and hex-size if the result is realistic.
For example putting it on 5km and 1 day turns should give a realistic result.
So should 40km and 1 month turns: http://www.emersonkent.com/images/norma ... y_1944.jpg

2. The effort of unloading troops on a beach and taking enemy terrain is already huge. Hence the penalty. Also the absence of this penalty might result in unrealistic results from the defenders perspective with small units appearing out of nowhere and racing everywhere.

3. The idea of EP is they represent potential construction effort made by the engineers untill current point of time. Its construction effort related to a specific hex or area. The idea is after shipping or strategic transfer they are bound to end up in a completely unrelated area of their previous front and thus have to restart their preperations.

Best wishes,
Vic

[warnevada]

1. This brings up another point regarding hex size. I haven't seen the game adjust things like aircraft and artillery ranges. With 40km hexes it means heavy artillery can fire 120km and regular artillery 80km, both beyond any artillery capability I'm aware of. On the other hand, shrinking hex size would require increasing range to be realistic.

2. I see your point. But perhaps the problem is that APs are used for both movement and combat. Units with zero APs not only can't move, they can't attack. In our games upon landing they always get clobbered. Perhaps a special case can be made for landings where the units may not move, but could attack -- something like what happens when you land a unit on top of an enemy unit.

3. Based on your description, there is an inconsistency. If you move an engineer by truck or train to another area, they retain their EPs, but if it's via Strategic Transfer they lose them, even if it's the same hex in both instances. In both cases they have to become acquainted with a new geography.

[Vic]

Hi warneveda,

2. If you like you can switch off the rulevar 882 hard amph/evac rule. If you do the units should not lose their AP when making amphibious landing.

3. Sure i guess its a bit gamey, but it felt right to me. Engineers being on the move with an army advancing felt right to retain EP... and with naval transport or strategic transfer it felt right they lose it. One of the reasons being that constructing roads would otherwise become a very slow affair. Another reasons is to avoid magic teleports of lots of big engineer units from one side of your empire to the other and constructing immediately.

Best wishes,
Vic

[warnevada]

2. Thanks. We'll try it and see if it works better.

3. Regarding EPs, here is a reply from my friend, who was a combat engineer in the US Army.

The problem is in scale. If 100 engineers land with supply and bulldozers, they do not need a month to lay out a landing strip. EP may be limited, and better yet, readiness may be limited, but neither should start at zero. If the area for invasions is limited, the engineers are under fire along with everyone else, true. But engineers do their best work at night - I have first-hand experience in darktime construction. It is massively nasty, but things get done.

Another observation was made: apparently invasions can be made on virtually any coastal hex and in bad weather. It might be more realistic if invasions were limited to specific types of hexes and only in clear weather. After all, the real D-Day invasion was delayed until there was a break in rainy weather.

Finally, my own observation. Both APs and EPs reflect passage of time. If a unit is sitting still it should have full capabilities, but if it moves then time passes and what it can do in the turn should be reduced. The farther it moves the less it should be able to do.

Audie