Ok, I've got an idea. First, download the GPU-Z Utility. You don't have to install it, you can run it in 'standalone' mode; it will give you the option when you first run it.
Second, reply here with what it reports for the 'Name' and 'Memory Size' in the 'Graphics Card' tab. Also check the drop-down menu at the very bottom of the window to check if you have multiple video cards (for instance, an nVIDIA card plus the integrated Intel graphics). If there are multiples, report the name + memory size for each. Note that integrated graphics may report the memory size as 'N/A'.
The third thing to do is to click on the 'Sensors' tab. If you have an nVIDIA or AMD/ATI card, make sure it is selected in the bottom drop-down menu; otherwise, you will only have the option for Intel graphics. This next step is optional, but it will cut down on the size of the log file that it generates (so you don't have to scroll as much at the end). Click on the 'Settings' menu icon - it is three horizontal black lines next to the camera, in the upper right corner. Click on the 'Sensors' tab and select '10 seconds' in the 'Sensor Refresh Rate' drop-down menu.
When you've done that, leave GPU-Z running in the background (you can minimize it or just leave it behind the WitPAE window) while you play your next long turn. It will automatically log the sensor information as you play - so there is no need to constantly monitor it other than to satisfy your own curiosity. Do not close GPU-Z or the sensor recordings will be lost.
When the game crashes next, do the following. Go back to GPU-Z. There will be a 'Log to File' checkbox at the bottom of the 'Sensors' tab - check it and select a save location; choosing the desktop will make it easy to find. Open the text file it generates and copy only the last five or so log entries at the very bottom of the file. You might have to scroll a bit here to reach the end. FYI, each entry may occupy multiple lines.
My running theory is that the Anniversary Update has introduced a slow VRAM (video memory) leak. My guess is that the footprint of the game continues to grow until you eventually run out of VRAM and *poof* goes your game. If this is true, you should be seeing the 'Memory Used' number slowly creep up over time.
Confirming or disproving the above along with more info about your video card will inform the decision about what to do next.
Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
Because there have not been a swarm of "me-too" postings about this problem, I am guessing there must be some issue with your particular set-up or hardware.
That error message about corrupted data could mean your hard drive is starting to fail or you have developed a bad spot on it. Wouldn't hurt to do a disk check and optimize the file structure. Speaking of disks - all the conversation so far has been about RAM and VRAM space but do you still have lots of disk space available? I think things slow down a lot when the disk is getting within about 15% of capacity remaining.
That error message about corrupted data could mean your hard drive is starting to fail or you have developed a bad spot on it. Wouldn't hurt to do a disk check and optimize the file structure. Speaking of disks - all the conversation so far has been about RAM and VRAM space but do you still have lots of disk space available? I think things slow down a lot when the disk is getting within about 15% of capacity remaining.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Because there have not been a swarm of "me-too" postings about this problem, I am guessing there must be some issue with your particular set-up or hardware.
I am going to agree here w/BB.
I just finished another turn in windows 10, and had another update occur while working on the turn between last night and this morning.
No problems.[:)] And there are many others out there cranking out the turns in windows 10 and not reporting this problem.
I understand that Windows 10 has now turned on their bit torrenting equivalent now, so you might want to check those settings now...not that I think that has anything to do with this problem.
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Because there have not been a swarm of "me-too" postings about this problem, I am guessing there must be some issue with your particular set-up or hardware.
That error message about corrupted data could mean your hard drive is starting to fail or you have developed a bad spot on it. Wouldn't hurt to do a disk check and optimize the file structure. Speaking of disks - all the conversation so far has been about RAM and VRAM space but do you still have lots of disk space available? I think things slow down a lot when the disk is getting within about 15% of capacity remaining.
The lack of 'me-too' postings could be for a few reasons:
1) Not everyone who is running Windows 10 has the Anniversary Update. MS has to update something like ~400 million devices, and as it can be around a 20GB update, per device, they are rolling it out slowly. That's a lot of bandwidth, even for MS. It was published by MS on Aug 2nd, and apbarog just recently got it. That should tell you something.
2) If there is a slow memory leak, it only becomes a problem if at some point there are insufficient resources. If you have more VRAM / RAM and/or a different configuration, you could have so much 'buffer' that you'd have to play a very long turn in order for the same to occur.
3) Related to #2, if this is Windows related and not specific to apbarog's machine, this isn't the type of error where the update changed something to immediately break the game (like changing how key resources are called, for instance). It is something to do with the update adding more bloat, and therefore is stressing finite resources.
My suspicion is that apbarog is using the integrated graphics built into his processor. Therefore, it doesn't have dedicated VRAM, but a certain portion of the system's RAM is allocated in his BIOS to act as VRAM. Oftentimes, the default amount allocated is something really low like 128MB - when the newest generation of video cards are being sold with 8GB (8,000MB) of dedicated on-board VRAM.
All that said, I'm not convinced myself that it is 100% Windows 10 Anniversary Update confirmed. Believe me, if I was certain of this, I'd be 'ringing the bells' about it up and down the halls of the main forum, especially given that there has been reports of save game corruption here.
So far I'm proceeding on the premise that his system has been running the game fine for years until very recently - and he noticed that the Anniversary Update was the only major change made to his system around the time the first problems occurred. But it's only a theory in the scientific sense that we're trying to prove OR disprove it with targeted experiments. It could very well be that by coincidence his hard drive, RAM, etc. has started to fail right around the time of the update, but I think he would be experiencing systemic problems if true, and none have been reported so far.
Finally, you make a good point that it could be related to the hard drive space. PCs make use of what is called a 'swap drive' that acts as a form of additional RAM (albeit relatively very slow in speed). If there is a memory leak, it could be affecting the swap drive the same way it would RAM, if he's running low on disk drive space. Yes, he should have plenty of RAM, but many programs (especially older ones) insist on using the swap drive anyway.
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
The hard disk has 1.36 TB available.
This PC did get the large update, then the problem arose. We have 2 other PC's in our household, and they haven't received the large update yet. I'm assuming that what I got was the "Anniversary Update", as it was very large, took much longer than the usual updates, and did a couple of reboots during the update. But there was no message that this was the "Anniversary Update".
My video card is an old one. It is an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 550 TI. I have installed the latest GeForce video driver, and I checked that it was applicable for this card. Looking at the adapter settings for the card, it lists:
Total Available Graphics Memory - 5115 MB
Dedicated Video Memory - 2048 MB
System Video Memory - 0 MB
Shared System Memory - 3067 MB
When I get my next turn from my opponent, hopefully later today, I will run the GPU-Z utility as suggested.
Note that this PC is the oldest of our PC's, and that I run very little on it anymore. I run WiTP:AE and email, and that's about it. I run all of my other games on a newer PC.
[edit: I'm pretty sure it was the Anniversary Update, I just don't remember the message. I've tried jumping through hoops to disable Cortana but that has been unsuccessful so far. This and other changes to the Start button tell me it was the Anniversary Update.]
This PC did get the large update, then the problem arose. We have 2 other PC's in our household, and they haven't received the large update yet. I'm assuming that what I got was the "Anniversary Update", as it was very large, took much longer than the usual updates, and did a couple of reboots during the update. But there was no message that this was the "Anniversary Update".
My video card is an old one. It is an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 550 TI. I have installed the latest GeForce video driver, and I checked that it was applicable for this card. Looking at the adapter settings for the card, it lists:
Total Available Graphics Memory - 5115 MB
Dedicated Video Memory - 2048 MB
System Video Memory - 0 MB
Shared System Memory - 3067 MB
When I get my next turn from my opponent, hopefully later today, I will run the GPU-Z utility as suggested.
Note that this PC is the oldest of our PC's, and that I run very little on it anymore. I run WiTP:AE and email, and that's about it. I run all of my other games on a newer PC.
[edit: I'm pretty sure it was the Anniversary Update, I just don't remember the message. I've tried jumping through hoops to disable Cortana but that has been unsuccessful so far. This and other changes to the Start button tell me it was the Anniversary Update.]
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
Ok, I think my specific theory is quashed - you have enough dedicated VRAM for it not to be a problem. You have enough RAM where there shouldn't be a problem.
Except...
Look at the 'shared system memory' - 3GB. How much RAM does Windows generally use? ~3GB. 3GB + ~3GB just so happens to be the amount of total system RAM you have available. This could be creating an artificial shortage of memory buffer to the point that some type of memory leak, related to the game or maybe just Windows itself, is able to cause a crash after a given amount of time.
How familiar are you with using your BIOS? It has historically been the blue DOS-looking menu system that you enter by pressing 'F10' or similar to 'Enter Setup' when you first boot your computer.
In the BIOS is the setting for how much system RAM is being allocated as VRAM. This is only used, however, when you are using the integrated graphics instead of your dedicated nVIDIA card. You can go ahead and change it to a much lower setting, say 256MB, which would give your integrated graphics basic functionality in the event your main card goes kaput, but it will free up the balance of RAM resources in the meantime. Make sure that you 'save changes' when you exit, and be sure not to change anything else while you're in there. If you're not familiar with using the BIOS/CMOS and you change something else by accident, it's better to exit and NOT save changes, reboot and try again than to proceed further.
The shared system memory setting will look something like this picture below, but it may differ depending on your specific BIOS. Newer BIOS interfaces look a lot different than this - although the options available should be about the same regardless.
Except...
Look at the 'shared system memory' - 3GB. How much RAM does Windows generally use? ~3GB. 3GB + ~3GB just so happens to be the amount of total system RAM you have available. This could be creating an artificial shortage of memory buffer to the point that some type of memory leak, related to the game or maybe just Windows itself, is able to cause a crash after a given amount of time.
How familiar are you with using your BIOS? It has historically been the blue DOS-looking menu system that you enter by pressing 'F10' or similar to 'Enter Setup' when you first boot your computer.
In the BIOS is the setting for how much system RAM is being allocated as VRAM. This is only used, however, when you are using the integrated graphics instead of your dedicated nVIDIA card. You can go ahead and change it to a much lower setting, say 256MB, which would give your integrated graphics basic functionality in the event your main card goes kaput, but it will free up the balance of RAM resources in the meantime. Make sure that you 'save changes' when you exit, and be sure not to change anything else while you're in there. If you're not familiar with using the BIOS/CMOS and you change something else by accident, it's better to exit and NOT save changes, reboot and try again than to proceed further.
The shared system memory setting will look something like this picture below, but it may differ depending on your specific BIOS. Newer BIOS interfaces look a lot different than this - although the options available should be about the same regardless.
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
The PC RAM (not video card RAM) is 6GB. With little running, the PC is using 2GB of that. When AE showed the first signs of a problem, I checked and the PC was using 3GB of the 6GB RAM.
I am familiar with BIOS, and was hoping it didn't come to that. The motherboard is old, and the BIOS is old. I'll need to pop open the case to get the specs on the motherboard, just to check on a BIOS upgrade. It's highly likely that the motherboard will not be listed as Windows 10 compatible, and a new BIOS to make it compatible may not even exist. I ran into that on my other PC, and that PC is newer than this one.
But the game, and Windows 10, has worked fine. Until this update.
I will go into the BIOS and see what I can see.
I am familiar with BIOS, and was hoping it didn't come to that. The motherboard is old, and the BIOS is old. I'll need to pop open the case to get the specs on the motherboard, just to check on a BIOS upgrade. It's highly likely that the motherboard will not be listed as Windows 10 compatible, and a new BIOS to make it compatible may not even exist. I ran into that on my other PC, and that PC is newer than this one.
But the game, and Windows 10, has worked fine. Until this update.
I will go into the BIOS and see what I can see.
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
You don't need to update the BIOS. You just need to reduce the amount of regular system RAM that is being earmarked to act as VRAM. VRAM is just RAM that is dedicated to storing graphics data as opposed to general data. That's why RAM can be allocated as VRAM.
Yes, you have 6GB system RAM. You also have an additional 2GB VRAM on the nVIDIA card. But notice how your system reports 5GB of total graphics memory? There isn't an additional 3GB of physical VRAM - it is allocating 3GB of your 6GB system RAM to act as VRAM, which you're not using because you have a dedicated graphics card with its own dedicated VRAM. The allocation would become important if you were to take out the nVIDIA card and use the Intel integrated graphics. Integrated graphics don't have extra RAM on the motherboard - they just use a portion of the system RAM available, as determined by the BIOS setting.
This is starting to make sense though. You boot your machine and the 'resting state' is about 2GB RAM used. Over time, due to additional Anniversary Update bloat, that number floats up to 3GB, at which point it runs out of memory because your system is already reserving 3GB in anticipation of using it for video data, even though it is not actually doing that. That's when the game crashes.
So the Anniversary Update could be the 'tipping point' that added just enough extra bloat to utilize all system resources after a given time, given your system's memory configuration and resources available.
Once you lower the VRAM setting, try your turn again following the same precautions and see if you can get it to fail again.
Yes, you have 6GB system RAM. You also have an additional 2GB VRAM on the nVIDIA card. But notice how your system reports 5GB of total graphics memory? There isn't an additional 3GB of physical VRAM - it is allocating 3GB of your 6GB system RAM to act as VRAM, which you're not using because you have a dedicated graphics card with its own dedicated VRAM. The allocation would become important if you were to take out the nVIDIA card and use the Intel integrated graphics. Integrated graphics don't have extra RAM on the motherboard - they just use a portion of the system RAM available, as determined by the BIOS setting.
This is starting to make sense though. You boot your machine and the 'resting state' is about 2GB RAM used. Over time, due to additional Anniversary Update bloat, that number floats up to 3GB, at which point it runs out of memory because your system is already reserving 3GB in anticipation of using it for video data, even though it is not actually doing that. That's when the game crashes.
So the Anniversary Update could be the 'tipping point' that added just enough extra bloat to utilize all system resources after a given time, given your system's memory configuration and resources available.
Once you lower the VRAM setting, try your turn again following the same precautions and see if you can get it to fail again.
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
As a side but related note, I find it interesting that nVIDIA is making a distinction for the Anniversary Update - although for now it points to the same driver:
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
I've gone through all of the BIOS options, and I don't see a place to change VRAM settings. The BIOS is Phoenix Award BIOS CMOS Setup Utility, but I can't even find a version number for it. But it is old.
What you say here makes sense. I've not had the problem after just a few minutes of game play, just after significant time of play, like an hour and a half or two hours. Lots of clicks and map scrolling.
With time, we'll see if others have similar issues. I'm considering just moving the game over to my newer machine. My newer machine has had Windows 10 for a longer time. That was why I kept AE on my older machine. I didn't want to mess with a Windows 10 upgrade until I had to. But then I had to, if I wanted the upgrade for free. With both running Windows 10 now, I might as well move the game over. It is true that my newer machine does not have the Anniversary Upgrade yet.
I'll continue to troubleshoot this issue if you think it is worthwhile.
What you say here makes sense. I've not had the problem after just a few minutes of game play, just after significant time of play, like an hour and a half or two hours. Lots of clicks and map scrolling.
With time, we'll see if others have similar issues. I'm considering just moving the game over to my newer machine. My newer machine has had Windows 10 for a longer time. That was why I kept AE on my older machine. I didn't want to mess with a Windows 10 upgrade until I had to. But then I had to, if I wanted the upgrade for free. With both running Windows 10 now, I might as well move the game over. It is true that my newer machine does not have the Anniversary Upgrade yet.
I'll continue to troubleshoot this issue if you think it is worthwhile.
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
The setting is probably in the 'Advanced BIOS Features' menu. The actual setting may be called something like 'On-Chip Frame Buffer Size'. It is usually grouped near the 'Init Display First' and 'Onboard VGA' options. See the picture I posted in post #26. That is what the setting looks like in an Award BIOS.
As for continuing or not - it really is up to you. I'm willing to continue if you would like to - maybe the old computer is in a more convenient location, or gives you a backup option if the others are being used, etc.
I think we're close to fixing the issue. The VRAM setting should be in your BIOS - it probably is just a question of what particular name it is being given.
As for continuing or not - it really is up to you. I'm willing to continue if you would like to - maybe the old computer is in a more convenient location, or gives you a backup option if the others are being used, etc.
I think we're close to fixing the issue. The VRAM setting should be in your BIOS - it probably is just a question of what particular name it is being given.
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
My BIOS screen does not have as many options as what you show. It has an "Init Display First", but no "Onboard VGA" or "On-Chip Frame Buffer". Nothing that would help us with video. I must have an older version.
I will continue as long as it could be helpful for others. I will run the utility when I run the next turn, hopefully later today.
I will continue as long as it could be helpful for others. I will run the utility when I run the next turn, hopefully later today.
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
Try pressing Shift+F1 or Control+F1 while in the BIOS main menu. Those key combos can sometimes unlock additional options in a Phoenix/Award BIOS.
You can go ahead and run the GPU-Z utility, although based on the new information I don't believe it will show full utilization of your VRAM.
I think continuing at this point is contingent upon what personal value it holds for you. What we went through reminds me very much of an FAA investigation after an aviation accident. To generalize, they usually find that a handful of circumstances happen to converge at one point in time to make the accident possible. In flight school, they teach you that one mistake doesn't typically kill you - it's when two or three things happen all at once that does.
To bring it back to your computer - you've been fine for years. The issue of half your RAM being reserved for an unneeded purpose has always been there, but it didn't bite you until the good 'ol Anniversary Update came along and converged with the existing issue, plus 'X' amount of time in a single session, to produce a crash. You were fine until all three happened at once.
So I believe we have found enough information that a person in similar circumstances would be led to look for a memory allocation issue or to at least know that insufficient memory, real or artificial, creates the symptoms you originally described. It is not specific to Windows 10 as any 'bloat' would do the trick.
You can go ahead and run the GPU-Z utility, although based on the new information I don't believe it will show full utilization of your VRAM.
I think continuing at this point is contingent upon what personal value it holds for you. What we went through reminds me very much of an FAA investigation after an aviation accident. To generalize, they usually find that a handful of circumstances happen to converge at one point in time to make the accident possible. In flight school, they teach you that one mistake doesn't typically kill you - it's when two or three things happen all at once that does.
To bring it back to your computer - you've been fine for years. The issue of half your RAM being reserved for an unneeded purpose has always been there, but it didn't bite you until the good 'ol Anniversary Update came along and converged with the existing issue, plus 'X' amount of time in a single session, to produce a crash. You were fine until all three happened at once.
So I believe we have found enough information that a person in similar circumstances would be led to look for a memory allocation issue or to at least know that insufficient memory, real or artificial, creates the symptoms you originally described. It is not specific to Windows 10 as any 'bloat' would do the trick.
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
I agree with your analysis. Thank you for your help.
No luck with Shift+F1 or Control+F1 in the BIOS main menu.
Since the problem consistently occurs after extended game play, that points to some type of RAM issue, as you've pointed out. My system configuration, for whatever reason, is now inadequate or faulty in some way. I think we've done what we can do on this.
Should others run into this problem, and new information arise, we can revisit the issue. For now, I'm switching to my newer PC. The game is just too important, and too much a part of my life, to not have it working!
Thanks again Korvar, and others, for your help.
No luck with Shift+F1 or Control+F1 in the BIOS main menu.
Since the problem consistently occurs after extended game play, that points to some type of RAM issue, as you've pointed out. My system configuration, for whatever reason, is now inadequate or faulty in some way. I think we've done what we can do on this.
Should others run into this problem, and new information arise, we can revisit the issue. For now, I'm switching to my newer PC. The game is just too important, and too much a part of my life, to not have it working!
Thanks again Korvar, and others, for your help.
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
a fresh install on the latest windows 10 version, not a upgrade fixes almost anything, just means a reinstall, which is easy enough, good luck
Windows 11 Pro 64-bit (10.0, Build 22621) (22621.ni_release.220506-1250)
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
ORIGINAL: apbarog
I agree with your analysis. Thank you for your help.
No luck with Shift+F1 or Control+F1 in the BIOS main menu.
Since the problem consistently occurs after extended game play, that points to some type of RAM issue, as you've pointed out. My system configuration, for whatever reason, is now inadequate or faulty in some way. I think we've done what we can do on this.
Should others run into this problem, and new information arise, we can revisit the issue. For now, I'm switching to my newer PC. The game is just too important, and too much a part of my life, to not have it working!
Thanks again Korvar, and others, for your help.
You're very welcome, I'm glad to help.
It sounds like you have a branded PC (Dell, HP, etc.) - they often have custom versions of the BIOS that are locked down to reduce the number of tech support calls resulting from bad settings. The functionality is there, it's just being hidden from view.
The only other thing I can think of for the BIOS is to check that the 'Init Display First' is not set to 'Auto' or 'Onboard'. The exact options available will vary - it may look something like this:
Basically, you are looking for the option that ISN'T the onboard card. Your video card is a PCI-Express 16 speed card, so if the above options were your choices, you'd select 'PCIE 16x-1' which translates to the '1st 16 speed PCI-Express slot on the motherboard'. It's somewhat of a long shot, but I'm hoping that switching this may turn your integrated video card 'off' and it will then free up the RAM on its own; however, this is usually accomplished with the missing options 'Onboard VGA' to turn it on/off and the 'Buffer' setting to determine how much memory is allocated - so I'm somewhat doubtful this will work.
It entirely depends on how they've customized that BIOS. I would hope that they left some way to disable the onboard graphics, especially if you bought the computer with the nVIDIA card installed AND that the erroneous setting is taking HALF of your RAM, but I wouldn't put it past some of the big manufacturers.
There is one more angle to try that I haven't mentioned yet. It's just conjecture on my part, but Cortana is a likely culprit for the increase in resources used since the Anniversary Update. I was under the impression that MS had locked it down pretty well by removing the 'off' button in Cortana, as well as the Group Policy Editor in Win 10 Pro.
If you feel inclined to give Cortana the ax, you can try the article here for both the group policy (Win 10 Pro only) or the registry hack to disable it. The Cortana search should revert to the basic Windows search at that point. I can't say for certain that Cortana is the only culprit at work here, but I know drive indexing services tend to be resource hogs anyway - so it's a good candidate. It also sounds like you didn't much care for it anyway (I share the same opinion), so it may be of benefit to do this even if it doesn't solve your WitPAE woes.
Other than that, I'll leave it as is until something else prompts us to revisit the issue.
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
ORIGINAL: zakblood
a fresh install on the latest windows 10 version, not a upgrade fixes almost anything, just means a reinstall, which is easy enough, good luck
That's exactly what I would do, especially after the 'corrupted system file' error.
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
Another thought ...
You said you have a relatively old system. It's possible that you hard drive is dying. You could (a) look in the system event log for disk-related errors, and/or (b) run a disk-check utility. I don't have Win10, but on Win7, open Windows Explorer, and on the left, expand 'Computer', right-click on the hard drive, select Properties from the popup menu, then the Tools tab, and there should be an option to scan for errors.
You said you have a relatively old system. It's possible that you hard drive is dying. You could (a) look in the system event log for disk-related errors, and/or (b) run a disk-check utility. I don't have Win10, but on Win7, open Windows Explorer, and on the left, expand 'Computer', right-click on the hard drive, select Properties from the popup menu, then the Tools tab, and there should be an option to scan for errors.
RE: Game Crashes after Large Windows 10 Update
ORIGINAL: sanch
Another thought ...
You said you have a relatively old system. It's possible that you hard drive is dying. You could (a) look in the system event log for disk-related errors, and/or (b) run a disk-check utility. I don't have Win10, but on Win7, open Windows Explorer, and on the left, expand 'Computer', right-click on the hard drive, select Properties from the popup menu, then the Tools tab, and there should be an option to scan for errors.
crystal disk? to check hard drive...I think that is the name of the program.
I have had 3 updates since the Anniversary update, and the game is running fine in windows 10.