Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
Nicely done! Well executed plan. [&o]
Can you estimate how many cruisers sank from the float plane ground losses?
Can you estimate how many cruisers sank from the float plane ground losses?
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
Great job at Kendari, looks like everything went according to plan!
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Nicely done! Well executed plan. [&o]
Can you estimate how many cruisers sank from the float plane ground losses?
Thanks! Yes, everything went according to plan. The Japanese left all their ships in Kendari, provided no LRCAP, and left no surface groups to protect against bombardment. It was a simple thing to bombard the base and hit it with 500 bombers.ORIGINAL: jwolf
Great job at Kendari, looks like everything went according to plan!
Unfortunately I destroyed so many planes on the ground that day, I simply cannot tell which ones were aboard ship! Ships often can accrue significant sys damage from bombs in port but do not sink. So even if I didn't sink all three, its safe to say they will all be out for a long time. And at this later date, being out for 6 months is just about as good as being out of the war.
- KenchiSulla
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RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
Even if they did not sink, he won't be able to get them out.. Ships with high system damage are almost impossible to safely transport to a repair yard.... Good strike, nice work
AKA Cannonfodder
"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
Exactly. Might want to pay the port another visit with my 4E just to check.ORIGINAL: KenchiSulla
Even if they did not sink, he won't be able to get them out.. Ships with high system damage are almost impossible to safely transport to a repair yard.... Good strike, nice work
Now I'm wondering what ships of the IJN are left operational. It very well might be only a large combined surface group led by the BB Yamato and the remnants of the KB. But the Japanese have pulled back from the eastern DEI, probably never to return. Definitely a good thing because I'm actually running rather low on cruisers that can cover my fleets.
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
Under the circumstances, it's probably worth it for the Japanese to try to pull out the (crippled?) cruisers from Kendari as they have nothing much to lose. But their odds of survival are very low.
Your operation at Kendari -- and the threat of the same at other bases -- should unlock most of the Celebes/Moluccas area for you. Maybe even more.
Your operation at Kendari -- and the threat of the same at other bases -- should unlock most of the Celebes/Moluccas area for you. Maybe even more.
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
Whatever was there has since burned up in port or left. No matter...the war goes on!ORIGINAL: jwolf
Under the circumstances, it's probably worth it for the Japanese to try to pull out the (crippled?) cruisers from Kendari as they have nothing much to lose. But their odds of survival are very low.
Yes, but progress will be slower after the next phase of landings currently underway. Some of the LCUs have begun planning for targets elsewhere. Furthermore, supply issues are really starting to bug me. Forward bases are not getting the supply they need because I'm so short of cargo ships in the region. Boela, for example, was taken about a week ago but is still inoperable as a base because I don't have enough supply there.ORIGINAL: jwolf
Your operation at Kendari -- and the threat of the same at other bases -- should unlock most of the Celebes/Moluccas area for you. Maybe even more.
The main priority in the eastern DEI is to break out north into the open ocean towards Palau while anchoring my left flank at Kendari. The idea is to shorten my supply lines by opening a supply on the northern half of Papua New Guinea. Unfortunately, the Japanese have recently reinforced Sorong and I may need to divert more LCUs to take that key base on the western tip of the island.
In the background I am preparing my enormous summer 1944 offensive. I have units all over the world getting prepped for those invasions. I think I have like 14 divisions with numerous smaller LCUs being earmarked for the offensive. No way I have enough of the specialized assault ships (APAs, LSD, LSL(I), etc) to carry all those troops. Luckily, I have a few APs that have a capacity of 5,000 troops. As long as I'm not landing on an atoll, those should be almost as good.
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
In the background I am preparing my enormous summer 1944 offensive.
Granted this may be 2 or 3 months ahead ... but it sounds really good. Can't wait to see things unfold once you get there.
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
I've been planning this OP since the beginning of 1944. It's really going to be something else once its underway. I hope to set a new standard of Allied operations with that offensive.ORIGINAL: jwolfGranted this may be 2 or 3 months ahead ... but it sounds really good. Can't wait to see things unfold once you get there.In the background I am preparing my enormous summer 1944 offensive.
- CaptBeefheart
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RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
xAPs and xAKs do fine for invasions in areas like the DEI and NG, as long as you have air and surface superiority and can park them for a few days.
Cheers,
CC
Cheers,
CC
Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
I actually disagree with you here. I've used xAPs and XAKs aplenty in invasions. As long as there are no CD guns its fine, but as soon as there is even a single CD unit then the unloading xAPs and xAKs are unsuitable. I've lost dozens upon dozens of xAPs and xAPs to CD guns while the fast unloading assault ships have only rarely been hit and none sunk to my memory.ORIGINAL: Commander Cody
xAPs and xAKs do fine for invasions in areas like the DEI and NG, as long as you have air and surface superiority and can park them for a few days.
Cheers,
CC
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
I have run into the same problem with assault shipping myself. I used xAP/xAKs to move my third - fourth - etc landing troops to the newly captured bases and then reused the assault shipping to actually invade.
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
Yup, that's basically my plan. Since I probably won't have enough assault ships for all my first wave units, I will probably have to use xAPs and xAKs to land first wave units on beaches I think are free of CD guns.ORIGINAL: BillBrown
I have run into the same problem with assault shipping myself. I used xAP/xAKs to move my third - fourth - etc landing troops to the newly captured bases and then reused the assault shipping to actually invade.
The more and more I think about this summer operation the more daunting logistics seem. With 10 divisions in the first wave I probably need 100,000 troop capacity and 200,000 cargo capacity. There's absolutely no way I can fit that all on assault ships and APs. On top of that, I'll probably need another 200,000 troop and 600,000 cargo capacity for the other LCUs, support units, reserves, and supply. Efficiently managing all these ships loading up troops scattered throughout the Pacific will likely the the most daunting task I have ever faced in my years of playing this game. I have little doubt it will prove more difficult than the actual landings themselves! But if I can pull it off, it's going to be beautiful.
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
April 15th, 1944
I did some analysis of troop carrying capacity a few days ago. I counted rough 45 assault type ships that probably have an average troop capacity of about 1500. That's nearly 70,000 troops which is not enough to carry all my 10 divisions that should be landing on D-Day. xAPs will have to carry a number of divisions to make up the difference. Debating if I should simply hold them back as a reserve or send them into the fray and just hope for the best. In any case, managing all these ships is going to be a nightmare. Where are my staff officers? Turns are taking upwards of 90 minutes not including the 20 minute replay. Probably doesn't help I'm micromanaging dozens small convoys of 1-4 ships in the DEI because the ports are so small. I've even halted a lot of airfield construction to build up the ports instead. Though I think I finally hit a turning point with supply; now Darwin's supply is going up quickly and now it's over 200k. I have around 20 or so LSTs in the DEI that will ferry supply from Darwin to forward bases now that I have a good supply margin to work with.
On a related note, I finally took Koepang after nearly 10 attacks:
If I am going to keep pushing forward in the DEI, I will need to quickly build up some of these Timor bases because Darwin is too remote.
Overall, things are going pretty well in the DEI. The Japanese fleet has withdrawn out of patrol plane range. The Japanese are still putting fighters in the sky within fighter and we're fighting some fierce air battles. I'm only coming out slightly ahead with P-38s but the P-47s cut through Japanese CAP like butter. I'm also destroying significant numbers of planes on the ground whenever I win air battle over a heavily defended base. I think I am reaching a point where Japanese fighter production is going to be strained with some of the advanced fighter types as they are taking the brunt of the casualties. The Japanese might even be forced to downgrade some of their squadrons for lack of air frames, especially the Ki-84a Frank which has seen the heaviest losses. I'm still encountering the Ki-44-IIc and Ki-61 so clearly the IJA is not able to equip all its squadrons with Franks (yet).
Burma things are quiet. Just bombing and bombarding while I wait for units to recover and two more divisions reach the line. At this point starving them out is my best option and my bombers have made short work of any and all convoys headed to Burma. Vengeance dive bombers have been particularly deadly in an anti-shipping role as they carry 2x500 lb and 2x250 lb bombs. Even so, the Japanese seem to have reinforced Rangoon with LCUs already in Burma. I estimate maybe 3500 AV in Rangoon. My plan is to use my division to get the fort to level 0 and bring all my small LCUs in for a final shock attack to get a 2-1 AV ratio. If I can pull this off by July 1944 I will consider myself lucky.
Not much else to speak of. SoPac is dead aside from the occasional CAP trap and unsuccessful small surprise naval strikes from small airbases. No convoys are coming here so hopefully supply will run so low as to make those missions impossible.
I did some analysis of troop carrying capacity a few days ago. I counted rough 45 assault type ships that probably have an average troop capacity of about 1500. That's nearly 70,000 troops which is not enough to carry all my 10 divisions that should be landing on D-Day. xAPs will have to carry a number of divisions to make up the difference. Debating if I should simply hold them back as a reserve or send them into the fray and just hope for the best. In any case, managing all these ships is going to be a nightmare. Where are my staff officers? Turns are taking upwards of 90 minutes not including the 20 minute replay. Probably doesn't help I'm micromanaging dozens small convoys of 1-4 ships in the DEI because the ports are so small. I've even halted a lot of airfield construction to build up the ports instead. Though I think I finally hit a turning point with supply; now Darwin's supply is going up quickly and now it's over 200k. I have around 20 or so LSTs in the DEI that will ferry supply from Darwin to forward bases now that I have a good supply margin to work with.
On a related note, I finally took Koepang after nearly 10 attacks:
Ground combat at Koepang (68,116)
Allied Shock attack
Attacking force 15540 troops, 248 guns, 461 vehicles, Assault Value = 508
Defending force 8312 troops, 74 guns, 85 vehicles, Assault Value = 13
Allied adjusted assault: 167
Japanese adjusted defense: 41
Allied assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 2)
Allied forces CAPTURE Koepang !!!
Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)
Japanese ground losses:
3305 casualties reported
Squads: 173 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 157 destroyed, 25 disabled
Engineers: 23 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 55 (55 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 73 (73 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 5
Allied ground losses:
109 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 14 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Units pursuing 2
Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!
Assaulting units:
8th Australian Division
627th Tank Destroyer Battalion
34th Combat Engineer Regiment
159th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
24th (Sep) Infantry Regiment
147th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
7th RAA Coastal Artillery Regiment
141st USA Base Force
Defending units:
12th Garrison Unit
18th Garrison Unit
7th ADU Coastal Gun Regiment
1st Ind. Engineer Regiment
12th JAAF Base Force
If I am going to keep pushing forward in the DEI, I will need to quickly build up some of these Timor bases because Darwin is too remote.
Overall, things are going pretty well in the DEI. The Japanese fleet has withdrawn out of patrol plane range. The Japanese are still putting fighters in the sky within fighter and we're fighting some fierce air battles. I'm only coming out slightly ahead with P-38s but the P-47s cut through Japanese CAP like butter. I'm also destroying significant numbers of planes on the ground whenever I win air battle over a heavily defended base. I think I am reaching a point where Japanese fighter production is going to be strained with some of the advanced fighter types as they are taking the brunt of the casualties. The Japanese might even be forced to downgrade some of their squadrons for lack of air frames, especially the Ki-84a Frank which has seen the heaviest losses. I'm still encountering the Ki-44-IIc and Ki-61 so clearly the IJA is not able to equip all its squadrons with Franks (yet).
Burma things are quiet. Just bombing and bombarding while I wait for units to recover and two more divisions reach the line. At this point starving them out is my best option and my bombers have made short work of any and all convoys headed to Burma. Vengeance dive bombers have been particularly deadly in an anti-shipping role as they carry 2x500 lb and 2x250 lb bombs. Even so, the Japanese seem to have reinforced Rangoon with LCUs already in Burma. I estimate maybe 3500 AV in Rangoon. My plan is to use my division to get the fort to level 0 and bring all my small LCUs in for a final shock attack to get a 2-1 AV ratio. If I can pull this off by July 1944 I will consider myself lucky.
Not much else to speak of. SoPac is dead aside from the occasional CAP trap and unsuccessful small surprise naval strikes from small airbases. No convoys are coming here so hopefully supply will run so low as to make those missions impossible.
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
April 16th, 1943
The current situation at Rangoon:
Finishing up this battle is going to be extremely difficult. It seems my months of air bombing have done almost nothing to hurt the Japanese here. Currently I am preparing an amphibious operation to land at Port Blair. I'm awaiting CVEs which were sent from the west coast to Aden. Hopefully I can kick it off within three weeks. I have about three divisions prepped for the task. The goal is to tighten the noose around the Burma siege while threatening the Burmese coast next to Thailand. Actually landing on that coast is another matter, however. I have a further two African divisions in reserve but both are poorly equipped. So I'm asking the readers what makes the most sense:
1. Prep for a landing at Tavoy. If successful, it would allow me to cut the Japanese in Burma off by land. The units used for the Port Blair invasion could be ferried to Tavoy but only if I succeed in taking the base. Given how weak those African divisions are, that is chancy. Currently the Japanese have around 12,000 defenders. In the next few turns I'll give more recon on this.
2. Prep the two divisions to land at Rangoon while using minimal forces to occupy Nicobar Islands which are currently empty. The upside of this is that I can get more LCUs to Rangoon and help me there, though it wouldn't be until July or so. Building up the Nicobars will take time as well as as drawing part of my limited air force from Burma.
Honestly I don't like either option. My main goal in the Indian Ocean theater has always been to open up the Burma road and get China going offensively. Given how much of China I still control (basically still this), getting supplies and base units into China will be huge. I have thousands upon thousands of Chinese infantry squads in reserve because the units in China lack the supply to get reinforced. Getting few hundred thousand tons of supply through the Burma road will allow me to open up an offensive in China without Allied LCUs. So these outflanking maneuvers I am contemplating seem to be in vain; all I want to do is finish off Rangoon as quickly as possible.
The current situation at Rangoon:
Ground combat at Rangoon (54,53)
Allied Bombardment attack
Attacking force 4758 troops, 366 guns, 258 vehicles, Assault Value = 3186
Defending force 92295 troops, 1062 guns, 1108 vehicles, Assault Value = 3228
Japanese ground losses:
59 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 7 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 15 (2 destroyed, 13 disabled)
Assaulting units:
Provisionl Tank
2nd British Division
6th Australian Division
14th Indian Division
25th Indian Division
7th Australian Division
19th Indian Division
5th Indian Division
2/11th Field Regiment
6th Mixed A/T Mtr Regiment
1st Medium Regiment
14th Army
2/13th Field Regiment
X' Force
31st Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
97th Field Artillery Battalion
30th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
28th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
29th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
8th Medium Regiment
26th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
134th Field Artillery Battalion
2/9th Field Regiment
33rd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
Defending units:
2nd Tank Division
21st Division
5th Division
20th Division
8th Division
2nd Division
14th Division
1st RTA Division
23rd Ind. Engineer Regiment
3rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
1st RF Gun Battalion
28th Army
1st Medium Field Artillery Regiment
10th RF Gun Battalion
Finishing up this battle is going to be extremely difficult. It seems my months of air bombing have done almost nothing to hurt the Japanese here. Currently I am preparing an amphibious operation to land at Port Blair. I'm awaiting CVEs which were sent from the west coast to Aden. Hopefully I can kick it off within three weeks. I have about three divisions prepped for the task. The goal is to tighten the noose around the Burma siege while threatening the Burmese coast next to Thailand. Actually landing on that coast is another matter, however. I have a further two African divisions in reserve but both are poorly equipped. So I'm asking the readers what makes the most sense:
1. Prep for a landing at Tavoy. If successful, it would allow me to cut the Japanese in Burma off by land. The units used for the Port Blair invasion could be ferried to Tavoy but only if I succeed in taking the base. Given how weak those African divisions are, that is chancy. Currently the Japanese have around 12,000 defenders. In the next few turns I'll give more recon on this.
2. Prep the two divisions to land at Rangoon while using minimal forces to occupy Nicobar Islands which are currently empty. The upside of this is that I can get more LCUs to Rangoon and help me there, though it wouldn't be until July or so. Building up the Nicobars will take time as well as as drawing part of my limited air force from Burma.
Honestly I don't like either option. My main goal in the Indian Ocean theater has always been to open up the Burma road and get China going offensively. Given how much of China I still control (basically still this), getting supplies and base units into China will be huge. I have thousands upon thousands of Chinese infantry squads in reserve because the units in China lack the supply to get reinforced. Getting few hundred thousand tons of supply through the Burma road will allow me to open up an offensive in China without Allied LCUs. So these outflanking maneuvers I am contemplating seem to be in vain; all I want to do is finish off Rangoon as quickly as possible.
- CaptBeefheart
- Posts: 2521
- Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 2:42 am
- Location: Seoul, Korea
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
Good point on xAPs vs CD units. I have noticed they get hit harder than APAs. However, against the Ironman AI losses aren't too out of hand.
I like landing at Tavoy myself, especially if it only has 12,000 defenders. The two African divs could probably handle it, but it would help a lot to have additional arty, tank and HQ assets on the invasion. From there you can threaten the whole coastline and Bangkok with LCUs and you can park some AKE/AD/AR there and do sustained shore bombardments of Rangoon, Moulmein and Mergui, all the while ensuring Rangoon gets zero resupply.
Cheers,
CC
I like landing at Tavoy myself, especially if it only has 12,000 defenders. The two African divs could probably handle it, but it would help a lot to have additional arty, tank and HQ assets on the invasion. From there you can threaten the whole coastline and Bangkok with LCUs and you can park some AKE/AD/AR there and do sustained shore bombardments of Rangoon, Moulmein and Mergui, all the while ensuring Rangoon gets zero resupply.
Cheers,
CC
Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.
- Capt. Harlock
- Posts: 5379
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- Location: Los Angeles
- Contact:
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
I'm only coming out slightly ahead with P-38s but the P-47s cut through Japanese CAP like butter.
Have you been able to put any P-51's into the fight yet?
Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?
--Victor Hugo
--Victor Hugo
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
The thing is that I don't have any extra support I can give. And two underpower divisions will not defeat 12,000 soldiers in terrain quickly. As a result, I decided to retask those units to Rangoon. I think that's the right move. Landing in Tavoy wouldn't make the supply situation any worse than it already is for the IJA in Burma. And I still don't even have a 2 to 1 AV edge with all my LCUs in Rangoon. It might take a while for those African divisions to reach the line but I'm having difficulty imagining that I'm going to take Rangoon before that.ORIGINAL: Commander Cody
I like landing at Tavoy myself, especially if it only has 12,000 defenders. The two African divs could probably handle it, but it would help a lot to have additional arty, tank and HQ assets on the invasion. From there you can threaten the whole coastline and Bangkok with LCUs and you can park some AKE/AD/AR there and do sustained shore bombardments of Rangoon, Moulmein and Mergui, all the while ensuring Rangoon gets zero resupply.
No, not really. Right now I only have the P-51A and only a few squadrons. It's not a great plane but it has decent range so it has been exclusively used as bomber escort. Looking forward to the P-51B with its long range AND excellent speed. Having a long range and capable single engine fighter will be very nice in the SWPAC where I'm continually reaching for further targets.ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock
Have you been able to put any P-51's into the fight yet?
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
April 18th, 1944
Not a lot going on now. Mostly just airfield bombing and the occasional air battle.
I haven't posted much stuff from the sub war, but I'll give you a snippet from today:
This is a little better than average but each day I'm hitting 2-4 ships with torpedoes. One thing that's interesting of late is how many escort ships are getting hit by subs. At this point those small escorts are the majority of Japanese losses from subs. Curious if the Japanese could ever run low on these ships. My gut says no but I've sunk hundreds upon hundreds of escorts by now.
Not a lot going on now. Mostly just airfield bombing and the occasional air battle.
I haven't posted much stuff from the sub war, but I'll give you a snippet from today:
xAK Atago Maru, Torpedo hits 1
E No.4, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
PB Shinko Maru #2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
PB Ma 3, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
xAKL Haguro Maru, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Gyoyu Maru, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
This is a little better than average but each day I'm hitting 2-4 ships with torpedoes. One thing that's interesting of late is how many escort ships are getting hit by subs. At this point those small escorts are the majority of Japanese losses from subs. Curious if the Japanese could ever run low on these ships. My gut says no but I've sunk hundreds upon hundreds of escorts by now.
RE: Straight Into the Teeth: A Story of Logistics, Patience, and Firepower
Japan will never run out of small PBs - it can convert the smallest merchant vessels to PBs and it can build them pretty quick too!
But if you sink all the real xAKs those PBs can escort themselves around the ocean and burn fuel as much as they want - it's all good for you!
But if you sink all the real xAKs those PBs can escort themselves around the ocean and burn fuel as much as they want - it's all good for you!
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth